Yes, it was horrible Bentley but it had its upsides too - like the camaraderie it engendered and the joys of 'living for the moment'. I was 13 when the war ended but had a 'good war' without any member of my family dying, even though we were bombed. I have good, positive memories of those days but, of course, on the occupied mainland of Europe where the holocaust took place, there were fewer good memories. All wars bring out the strength in women, of course, because the menfolk are away. This is also reflected in English literature written during or about long the Napoleonic War period, of which Cranford is a good example. Perhaps EH is reflecting the period of WWI and its effect on men fighting a particularly senseless war?
I do not know whether EH wrote about any strong women - perhaps Fanuzzir can enlighten us there. He may just have been drawn to weaker women and avoided the strong ones, just as I am drawn to weaker men and avoid strong, masculine ones
.
I do not know whether EH wrote about any strong women - perhaps Fanuzzir can enlighten us there. He may just have been drawn to weaker women and avoided the strong ones, just as I am drawn to weaker men and avoid strong, masculine ones
.
bentley wrote:Choisya said, "However, for some reason, he chose not to to base characters on the strong women he met, like Gertrude Stein et al or on examples in the society around him. As an intellectual he would have been likely to have met a number of emancipated women of his time, at the front and in cafe society. Perhaps he chose to parody the women in fox furs instead? (He may have had strong women characters too but I have not yet come across them."
Yes, Choisya...I have not come across them either. I enjoyed your comment about women's role during the World War in England (England was definitely mobilized and everyone had to pitch in - the war was not only at your doorstep - it was in your country with so much loss of life and homes). I spend a lot of time in England and was there last just a month ago (visiting once again the War Museum and the Churchill Museum). It was amazing to me how valiant "all" of the English people were during that war and they never gave up despite huge losses. I personally was in awe. To have bombings day in and day out..is something that I cannot imagine. It had to be horrible. Getting back to Hemingway and Women, there were so many strong and self reliant and brave women to chose from to write about but EH didn't write about them. He wrote only about women who were as Marty would have said "footnotes to another person's life" not their own. I can only imagine why and maybe he only saw women from his perspective and could not advance in his thinking of them. He was stuck.Message Edited by bentley on 02-23-200706:49 AM
Message Edited by bentley on 02-23-200706:49 AM
Choisya, I think all Europeans were extremely brave during that period of time and I can only imagine what everyone went through. It is good that you had a better war experience than others (but being bombed is unimaginable for me).
Women can be much stronger than men....I can't imagine men going through labor or delivering a baby..or sticking with adversity like women have through the ages. Yes, EH wrote a piece which I quoted somewhere probably in the Hemingway and War thread where he felt that war was a crime and it really is.
There are so many patterns that we set up in our lives as to the right way to do something which really reflect only the way that we like to do something not really any universal truth. We get ourselves into these ruts in our live's path and continue in the same vein never with a detour.
People want to be needed and maybe that was reflected in EH's choices and maybe it made him feel better temporarily. Who knows why folks are attracted to someone or that person to them. EH seemed to have a "verboten" sign for strong women (stay away at all costs).
Women can be much stronger than men....I can't imagine men going through labor or delivering a baby..or sticking with adversity like women have through the ages. Yes, EH wrote a piece which I quoted somewhere probably in the Hemingway and War thread where he felt that war was a crime and it really is.
There are so many patterns that we set up in our lives as to the right way to do something which really reflect only the way that we like to do something not really any universal truth. We get ourselves into these ruts in our live's path and continue in the same vein never with a detour.
People want to be needed and maybe that was reflected in EH's choices and maybe it made him feel better temporarily. Who knows why folks are attracted to someone or that person to them. EH seemed to have a "verboten" sign for strong women (stay away at all costs).
Choisya wrote:
Yes, it was horrible Bentley but it had its upsides too - like the camaraderie it engendered and the joys of 'living for the moment'. I was 13 when the war ended but had a 'good war' without any member of my family dying, even though we were bombed. I have good, positive memories of those days but, of course, on the occupied mainland of Europe where the holocaust took place, there were fewer good memories. All wars bring out the strength in women, of course, because the menfolk are away. This is also reflected in English literature written during or about long the Napoleonic War period, of which Cranford is a good example. Perhaps EH is reflecting the period of WWI and its effect on men fighting a particularly senseless war?
I do not know whether EH wrote about any strong women - perhaps Fanuzzir can enlighten us there. He may just have been drawn to weaker women and avoided the strong ones, just as I am drawn to weaker men and avoid strong, masculine ones
Message Edited by bentley on 02-23-200708:26 AM
Women can be much stronger than men....I can't imagine men going through labor or delivering a baby..or sticking with adversity like women have through the ages.
There are many kinds of bravery and adversity and I suspect that both sexes can be capable of sticking with some of them and not with others. I don't think labour is brave - it just has to happen and some of us scream more than others!! Would men scream more? We don't know
I came across this article reviewing the book 'Hemingway and Women : Female Critics and the Female Voice' which analyses some of H's women and posits that his character Brett Ashley is an 'emancipated new woman'. I have not read that story so cannot comment. Perhaps others here could.
http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3786/i
There are many kinds of bravery and adversity and I suspect that both sexes can be capable of sticking with some of them and not with others. I don't think labour is brave - it just has to happen and some of us scream more than others!! Would men scream more? We don't know
I came across this article reviewing the book 'Hemingway and Women : Female Critics and the Female Voice' which analyses some of H's women and posits that his character Brett Ashley is an 'emancipated new woman'. I have not read that story so cannot comment. Perhaps others here could.
http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3786/i
bentley wrote:
Choisya, I think all Europeans were extremely brave during that period of time and I can only imagine what everyone went through. It is good that you had a better war experience than others (but being bombed is unimaginable for me).
Women can be much stronger than men....I can't imagine men going through labor or delivering a baby..or sticking with adversity like women have through the ages. Yes, EH wrote a piece which I quoted somewhere probably in the Hemingway and War thread where he felt that war was a crime and it really is.
There are so many patterns that we set up in our lives as to the right way to do something which really reflect only the way that we like to do something not really any universal truth. We get ourselves into these ruts in our live's path and continue in the same vein never with a detour.
People want to be needed and maybe that was reflected in EH's choices and maybe it made him feel better temporarily. Who knows why folks are attracted to someone or that person to them. EH seemed to have a "verboten" sign for strong women (stay away at all costs).
Choisya wrote:
Yes, it was horrible Bentley but it had its upsides too - like the camaraderie it engendered and the joys of 'living for the moment'. I was 13 when the war ended but had a 'good war' without any member of my family dying, even though we were bombed. I have good, positive memories of those days but, of course, on the occupied mainland of Europe where the holocaust took place, there were fewer good memories. All wars bring out the strength in women, of course, because the menfolk are away. This is also reflected in English literature written during or about long the Napoleonic War period, of which Cranford is a good example. Perhaps EH is reflecting the period of WWI and its effect on men fighting a particularly senseless war?
I do not know whether EH wrote about any strong women - perhaps Fanuzzir can enlighten us there. He may just have been drawn to weaker women and avoided the strong ones, just as I am drawn to weaker men and avoid strong, masculine onesMessage Edited by bentley on 02-23-200708:26 AM
Message Edited by Choisya on 02-23-200708:38 AM
Will read the article at length a bit later...it has been a long time since I read the novel The Sun Also Rises. (thanks however)
It is a powerful novel concerning the Lost Generation. Oddly enough he was talking about a group of people scarred by World War I. The main characters are Jake Barnes and Brett Ashley. Barnes suffered some sort of war injury (hard to remember) during this war. He is unable to consummate his relationship with Brett sexually. The story/novel follows his preoccupation with her as he does other "manly things".
As far as childbirth..each to their own I guess. To scream or not to scream...when you are going through the pain..I guess who cares...scream all you want. I remember a guy in an emergency room next to me was screaming his head off and I thought...wow something bad must really be happening over there. I was in a lot of pain but was bearing up as best I could (kidney stone which I passed). Come to find out this guy was going through the same thing and I am sure if you were listening you might have heard him in the UK. I wonder if women emote more than men...I don't know...
There certainly seems to be more "emoting" from women in EH's stories than from men who seem to keep the stiff upper lip.
It is a powerful novel concerning the Lost Generation. Oddly enough he was talking about a group of people scarred by World War I. The main characters are Jake Barnes and Brett Ashley. Barnes suffered some sort of war injury (hard to remember) during this war. He is unable to consummate his relationship with Brett sexually. The story/novel follows his preoccupation with her as he does other "manly things".
As far as childbirth..each to their own I guess. To scream or not to scream...when you are going through the pain..I guess who cares...scream all you want. I remember a guy in an emergency room next to me was screaming his head off and I thought...wow something bad must really be happening over there. I was in a lot of pain but was bearing up as best I could (kidney stone which I passed). Come to find out this guy was going through the same thing and I am sure if you were listening you might have heard him in the UK. I wonder if women emote more than men...I don't know...
There certainly seems to be more "emoting" from women in EH's stories than from men who seem to keep the stiff upper lip.
Choisya wrote:
Women can be much stronger than men....I can't imagine men going through labor or delivering a baby..or sticking with adversity like women have through the ages.
There are many kinds of bravery and adversity and I suspect that both sexes can be capable of sticking with some of them and not with others. I don't think labour is brave - it just has to happen and some of us scream more than others!! Would men scream more? We don't know
I came across this article reviewing the book 'Hemingway and Women : Female Critics and the Female Voice' which analyses some of H's women and posits that his character Brett Ashley is an 'emancipated new woman'. I have not read that story so cannot comment. Perhaps others here could.
http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3786/is_200304/ai_n9235353
bentley wrote:
Message Edited by bentley on 02-23-200708:52 AM
'I don't think anyone here is seeing it on that level.'
We need to be very precise with what we mean to avoid unnecessary disputes. I.e. do you discuss that issue generally or in Hemingway's own life...
I meant in the discussion here, which is what I thought you were referring to.
For my own sake I try to see the role of H's writing and see what images he transmits and posisbly glipse his true face behind the myth.
I try to do this too but possibly try to get there via different routes - a feminist approach being amongst them, a marxist one too for that matter. For my part, I cannot put to one side what has gone before or what others, more learned than I, have contributed to the Hemingway critique overall. I cannot (and do not want to) make my mind a blank slate. (However, my daughters would laugh if they thought I was being called a feminist
)
I find references to mysticism and yoga difficult to comprehend in relation to EH (and MD) but I nevertheless try to take them on board and then struggle with the concepts put forward, alien though they are to me.
We need to be very precise with what we mean to avoid unnecessary disputes. I.e. do you discuss that issue generally or in Hemingway's own life...
I meant in the discussion here, which is what I thought you were referring to.
For my own sake I try to see the role of H's writing and see what images he transmits and posisbly glipse his true face behind the myth.
I try to do this too but possibly try to get there via different routes - a feminist approach being amongst them, a marxist one too for that matter. For my part, I cannot put to one side what has gone before or what others, more learned than I, have contributed to the Hemingway critique overall. I cannot (and do not want to) make my mind a blank slate. (However, my daughters would laugh if they thought I was being called a feminist
)I find references to mysticism and yoga difficult to comprehend in relation to EH (and MD) but I nevertheless try to take them on board and then struggle with the concepts put forward, alien though they are to me.
ziki wrote:
Choisya wrote: I don't think anyone here is seeing it on that level.
---------
We need to be very precise with what we mean to avoid unnecessary disputes. I.e. do you discuss that issue generally or in Hemingway's own life...etc.
I am not interested to go into the details of feminist movement and dispute out of context taken sentences.
Thereby I put a foot on the break in this very moment.
For my own sake I try to see the role of H's writing and see what images he transmits and posisbly glipse his true face behind the myth.
That is all.
Thank you for your understanding.
zikiMessage Edited by ziki on 02-23-200702:47 PM
Are you familiar with a Lady Duff Twysden. Some have said that she was the model for Brett Ashley in The Sun Also Rises.
I believe she may have been from your neck of the woods. Curious what she was/is like. Not sure how EH knew her either.
I believe she may have been from your neck of the woods. Curious what she was/is like. Not sure how EH knew her either.
Choisya wrote:
Women can be much stronger than men....I can't imagine men going through labor or delivering a baby..or sticking with adversity like women have through the ages.
There are many kinds of bravery and adversity and I suspect that both sexes can be capable of sticking with some of them and not with others. I don't think labour is brave - it just has to happen and some of us scream more than others!! Would men scream more? We don't know
I came across this article reviewing the book 'Hemingway and Women : Female Critics and the Female Voice' which analyses some of H's women and posits that his character Brett Ashley is an 'emancipated new woman'. I have not read that story so cannot comment. Perhaps others here could.
No, I haven't heard of her and haven't read The Sun...This review says of Brett Ashley that she stands as one of Hemingway's most developed female personae'. In view of what has been said on this board about his 'weak' female characters, I think I will have to read The Sun... to see what he does with Brett Ashley.
http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3786/i
The remark by Scott Fitzgerald and about Lady Duff leaving her bills unpaid in this Answer.com entry are amusing:-
http://www.answers.com/topic/the-sun-also-rises
http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3786/i
The remark by Scott Fitzgerald and about Lady Duff leaving her bills unpaid in this Answer.com entry are amusing:-
http://www.answers.com/topic/the-sun-also-rises
bentley wrote:
Are you familiar with a Lady Duff Twysden. Some have said that she was the model for Brett Ashley in The Sun Also Rises.
I believe she may have been from your neck of the woods. Curious what she was/is like. Not sure how EH knew her either.
Choisya wrote:
Women can be much stronger than men....I can't imagine men going through labor or delivering a baby..or sticking with adversity like women have through the ages.
There are many kinds of bravery and adversity and I suspect that both sexes can be capable of sticking with some of them and not with others. I don't think labour is brave - it just has to happen and some of us scream more than others!! Would men scream more? We don't know
I came across this article reviewing the book 'Hemingway and Women : Female Critics and the Female Voice' which analyses some of H's women and posits that his character Brett Ashley is an 'emancipated new woman'. I have not read that story so cannot comment. Perhaps others here could.
Message Edited by Choisya on 02-23-200711:35 AM
EH went out to find action, to find himself...and what did he ended up with? Injuries? What were his crutches? How unsafe it must have felt to walk in the midst of the earthquake for the men at that time. Maybe they knew they fuc--d up. Perhaps in that situation it is natural to grip the inherited role models (here the hunter) and try to create a whale leg out of it. Get a boat, too, go fishing, conquer.
On the other hand there were thousands of men who came back from that war, equally injured, determined never to fight a war again and from these we got a very different literature, like the War Poetry of Wilfred Owen, Siegfried Sassoon et al or All Quiet on the Western Front by Erich Remarque. Others founded the League of Nations and devoted themselves to pacifism; yet others devoted themselves to environmental issues and the saving of the wild animals like the tiger and the elephant, which had been decimated by big game hunting.
Next generation after was guned down on the battlefield by the feminist gang.
They seem pretty hale and hearty to me and still getting us into wars
I am sick of the demanding criticizing overpowering metarzan women.
Where are they? I thought they had all died off or been struck dumb. Feminism of that sort has long died a death over here. Even the once militant Ozzie, Germaine Greer, is a pussycat these days
There is no ready substitute in this case...
On the high street and in advertisements there has been a complete turnaround from an earlier 'substitute' Unisex approach to life which was beginning to change attitudes -now all those pink and blue clothes, frills and furbelows, barbie dolls and action men are back with a vengeance. Did our emerging Unisex 'collective unconscious' make this decision or was it the corporate financiers who see more bucks in marketing separately for boys/girls, men/women? And what sex are the majority of those corporate financiers? Will it change if their sex changes?
Will the next president be a woman or a colored man?
Perhaps we need elected 'committees' of Presidents/Prime Ministers - women, ethnic and men?
On the other hand there were thousands of men who came back from that war, equally injured, determined never to fight a war again and from these we got a very different literature, like the War Poetry of Wilfred Owen, Siegfried Sassoon et al or All Quiet on the Western Front by Erich Remarque. Others founded the League of Nations and devoted themselves to pacifism; yet others devoted themselves to environmental issues and the saving of the wild animals like the tiger and the elephant, which had been decimated by big game hunting.
Next generation after was guned down on the battlefield by the feminist gang.
They seem pretty hale and hearty to me and still getting us into wars
I am sick of the demanding criticizing overpowering metarzan women.
Where are they? I thought they had all died off or been struck dumb. Feminism of that sort has long died a death over here. Even the once militant Ozzie, Germaine Greer, is a pussycat these days
There is no ready substitute in this case...
On the high street and in advertisements there has been a complete turnaround from an earlier 'substitute' Unisex approach to life which was beginning to change attitudes -now all those pink and blue clothes, frills and furbelows, barbie dolls and action men are back with a vengeance. Did our emerging Unisex 'collective unconscious' make this decision or was it the corporate financiers who see more bucks in marketing separately for boys/girls, men/women? And what sex are the majority of those corporate financiers? Will it change if their sex changes?
Will the next president be a woman or a colored man?
Perhaps we need elected 'committees' of Presidents/Prime Ministers - women, ethnic and men?
ziki wrote:
bentley wrote: He was stuck.
What a pity that you were not around to tell it to him, it might have shifted the whole western literature.;-)
It's paramount for the women not to paint themselves into a corner.
However, what I want to say and what I am starting to see due to this development on this board is how unstable the cracking male patriarchal image was at that time. Whole political structure of Europe were shifting. EH went out to find action, to find himself...and what did he ended up with? Injuries? What were his crutches? How unsafe it must have felt to walk in the midst of the earthquake for the men at that time. Maybe they knew they fuc--d up. Perhaps in that situation it is natural to grip the inherited role models (here the hunter) and try to create a whale leg out of it. Get a boat, too, go fishing, conquer.
Ernest tried best he could to do as taught, his son couldn't uphold it anymore. Next generation after was guned down on the battlefield by the feminist gang. No masts available, all shipmate drowned, the female whale was happy. Confusion still abides and the search for reliable role models, too. That is why I asked you about them previously, bentley, at the beginning of this discussion. I was curious. The world can't do with your grandfather (unless he was Gandhi of sorts). The private picture is absolutely useful in families but on the collective level the world needs reliable icons. Was JFK such one? Not really.
Maybe the age long gender picture so well grounded in the biology (me Tarzan you Jane) needs a couple of generations to be successfuly modified. It took a whole century of falling apart and it is still unsure where we stand today. Will the next president be a woman or a colored man? Or none of them? That is the public picture. The covert violence against women in their homes is another burning chapter. How far did we actually get? Hemingway shot a hole in the wall hitting his skull, too. No way to live.
Usually you can't just take away something without providing a substitute. There is no ready substitute in this case and I am sick of the demanding criticizing overpowering metarzan women. As a woman I can say it, as a man I couldn't get away with it. For that gender attitude change to be effective the man and woman has to walk hand in hand. Both need to be willing to change, and surrender to the an ultimate value bigger than themselves. Mighty task.
zikiMessage Edited by Choisya on 02-23-200711:24 AM
Message Edited by Choisya on 02-23-200711:24 AM
Thanks. I thought you gave a yogic reference somewhere - kundalini? I don't so much like weak men, physically that is, but I like kind, gentle ones and definitely not ones who hunt or shoot. I have met a fair few gentle souls but unfortunately I did not marry any
I am a Yorkshirewoman and Yorkshiremen are well known for being rough and tough - I had my fill of them I would never kneel and do not think it is necessary or desirable that anyone should kneel.
I am a Yorkshirewoman and Yorkshiremen are well known for being rough and tough - I had my fill of them I would never kneel and do not think it is necessary or desirable that anyone should kneel.
ziki wrote:
Yoga? What did you put into your tea today?
Ahhh.... Choisya, we just work on it...the routes are different but I trust the goal is the same for all :-) that is the crux here and everywhere. As we worked on the religion and found the meeting point through Spinoza in bro Walt, LOL, I trust we in time also pocket the feminists&marxists and all bluestockings in red hats (I could manage the Nashville red one with dignity, I guess). I weave Hemingway with good Soldier,too, not much to say about that yet.
This was most interesting development on this board because I have also seen how my family background plays in here (details of which I leave out), suffice to say the different actors of this drama exist even on a small family scale =generations shifting roles.
How interesting you said you prefer (tend to meet) weak man, I don't. (There are plenty of them stuffed in corners, unjustly so.) I want'em blooming and shining and at their best! And wouldn't mind to kneel if that splendor and mutual reverence was everpresent there.
You're a good sport.
Thanks for you clarifications, great! Gotcha.
ziki :-)Message Edited by ziki on 02-23-200705:14 PM
Message Edited by Choisya on 02-23-200711:38 AM
