choisya

[Choisya]

LOL Ziki - you're a great help Grrrrrrrr

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ziki wrote:

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Choisya wrote: there are now very few tigers left in the world

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Lucky for us all, you are one of them.

ziki

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[bentley]

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bentley wrote:
Elee's interpretation of the Sea Change is worth reposting so that it does not get lost in the recent posts. Any comments on this short story and the female character in the story.

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ELee wrote:
Ariel’s song from Shakespeare's "The Tempest"

Full fathom five thy father lies.
Of his bones are coral made;
Those are pearls that were his eyes;
Nothing of him that doth fade
But doth suffer a sea-change
Into something rich and strange.

I found many similarities between The Sea Change and Hills Like White Elephants, not the least of which is the principal use of dialogue to tell the story. Just like the couple in HLWE, within the first few lines of TSC we know that a relationship has experienced an irrevocable change. In the case of The Sea Change, the girl is leaving Phil to have a lesbian affair with another woman. This comes after the girl and Phil have had a relationship of some duration because he had it his own way “for a long time”. The girl’s response that she “can’t” rather than won’t seems to indicate that this attraction is something beyond her control. Phil looks at her and still sees the things that physically attracted him to her: her golden brown skin, blonde hair that grew beautifully away from her forehead, her eyes, her mouth, the curve of her cheek bones, the edge of her ear and her neck. At first he feels an angry jealousy and says “I’ll kill her”. Then he tries to bargain with the girl and asks if she couldn’t have “gotten into something else”. The girl tries to pacify and reach out to him, telling him how sorry she is and that she loves him very much. Phil pulls back into himself and his next reaction reflects denial as he refuses to touch her hand and tells her he would “rather not hear”. The real issue for Phil is introduced when he says “If it was a man-“. Her current sexual preference has caused him to feel inadequate as a man and sexual partner. Her new affair belies his expectations of the role he thought was his, and he cannot come to terms with her choice as a masculine, heterosexual male. While the girl is still able to love Phil on some deeper level, he equates the love, understanding and trust she talks about with sex and isn’t able to extend any forgiveness despite everything they’ve been to each other. There is even a hint that their [sexual] life together may have been a little “unusual”. He is determined to label her intention, calling it “perversion”, to which she responds “No. We’re made up of all sorts of things. You’ve known that. You’ve used it well enough.” This seems to resonate with Phil enough to allow him to move forward to releasing the girl. She makes sure that he means it, and then leaves without looking back. But he is now in uncharted territory. His voice sounds strange and is no longer recognizable to Phil. He is not the “same-looking” man: he is now a different-looking man, a different man than formerly. He has been forced to rethink his role and will have to reinvent himself if he is to come to terms with what has happened. Apparently he has made a good start, because the barman sees that he “look[s] very well.

Message Edited by ELee on 02-23-200709:20 PM

Message Edited by ELee on 02-23-200709:23 PM

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[bentley]

This is an interesting article from Book Notes - cnn.com (1999 vintage). Francine Prose is quoted regarding Hemingway's female characters (The Secret Life of Francis Macomber)


http://www.cnn.com/books/news/9904/12/hemingway/index.html

Message Edited by bentley on 02-24-200704:02 PM

Message Edited by bentley on 02-24-200704:03 PM

[fanuzzir]

Two things:

Of course it is ridiculous that the smut filter misread the import of pussycat. Please don't let an inanimate technology ruin your day, Choisya.

And what do you all think of Sea Change, and Elee's comments?

I just can't believe the artistry that Hemingway devoted to men dumping women. The conversation starts out in the middle of nowhere, but with the two timeless phrases of male/female relations: Do this, he said; no I won't, she said. Fill in the blanks with the rest. This is an incredibly spare but still powerful template for everything that Hemingway sees wrong in committed relationships and in enterprising women as well. Here he gets the satisfaction of having such a woman beg the noble, gallant, old-fashioned but put upon hero to take her back. After sleeping with a woman. Then there is the crosstalk with the barman that puts an urban buzz to the whole thing. I'm really impressed at the technique and the pacing. And shocked at the content, how bare it is.
Bob

[ziki]

Does it really have to be reposted three times? Did you guys loose it?

ziki :-p

[ziki]

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fanuzzir wrote: I wouldn't even consider the question of monogamy and EH masculinity; a broken relationship is where masculine personality starts, the basis for its development and exposition.

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Nice (almost too abreviated for me at the moment).

It is like when I am trying to catch my own tail. I think I have it....and then ....not.
I think I need a few more stepstones to make it to the other shore. Or I just need more time. Not sure.


ziki
sans tail

Message Edited by ziki on 02-25-200702:48 AM

[ziki]

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fanuzzir wrote:Let me add my two cents. I hate this story. I hate the way it makes a noble pursuit of a woman's interest in a wet cat. I hate the way the cat is all she can have, all she can want. I hate the fact that she gets the cat and will go on to live with this unfeeling **bleep**. Of course I admire Hemingway for having the bravery to paint such a bleak portrait. But I also resent him for giving a women her, so to speak, say, and making her the wounded little kitty. Go to it.

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ROFL.....and now I will need to read the story, aw shucks!

ziki

[bentley]

Thank you Bob for adding this explanation. And thank you for trying to bring the conversation back to Sea Change. It takes a certain amount of time to actually read the short story, comment on the story itself with quotes and interpretation and then post it here. Elee's comments were terrific and took some time. You can tell when someone has actually read the stories. My take on Sea Change was that both characters potentially had the same leanings and had dabbled in pushing the envelope with some of their intimacies with each other (not sure what he was referring to). But you could certainly "see a lot of change" in both of them by the end of the story. Again I have not been uplifted or felt that much better from reading any of the Hemingway stories (but reading them I am doing) and I think I am learning a lot about him and his style in the process. I love your interpretation of the timeless phrases of male/female relationships..it made me smile but it is very true. Maybe Francine Prose has it right..Hemingway was a "misogynist" (see the cnn.com posting of the url a few posts back that I made)

I don't know but he certainly at the core level did not really like them (not sure that it was hate he was exhibiting but definitely disdain - like a germ you have to put up with when you have a cold).

And thank you Elee for taking the time to post your interpretation and analysis. I thoroughly enjoyed it. I felt that the woman portrayed in this story was much stronger than some of the other female characters (she made a choice and stuck with it) and didn't look back. It wasn't the "normal" female/male choice but it was a decision nonetheless. And most of the female characters we have met so far had difficulty making independent decisions..(Marjorie finally made one when she left Nick on the shore - bravo) but most of the females are waiting for the attention and the decisions of the males in the story (hanging on every nuance of what the males say and do) and not frankly being able to be capable of independent and male like decision making power and stamina. He is definitely portraying females as the weaker sex in every possible light.

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fanuzzir wrote:
Two things:

Of course it is ridiculous that the smut filter misread the import of pussycat. Please don't let an inanimate technology ruin your day, Choisya.

And what do you all think of Sea Change, and Elee's comments?

I just can't believe the artistry that Hemingway devoted to men dumping women. The conversation starts out in the middle of nowhere, but with the two timeless phrases of male/female relations: Do this, he said; no I won't, she said. Fill in the blanks with the rest. This is an incredibly spare but still powerful template for everything that Hemingway sees wrong in committed relationships and in enterprising women as well. Here he gets the satisfaction of having such a woman beg the noble, gallant, old-fashioned but put upon hero to take her back. After sleeping with a woman. Then there is the crosstalk with the barman that puts an urban buzz to the whole thing. I'm really impressed at the technique and the pacing. And shocked at the content, how bare it is.
Bob

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Message Edited by bentley on 02-25-200707:14 AM

[Choisya]

Yes, and the story is very illustrative of much of Hemingway's writing about and attitudes towards women.

I see there has been another 'bleep'! It isn't the inanimate program that annoys me Fanuzzir, it is the fact that it has not been rewritten/changed despite many complaints about it since last October. Whoever wrote this software must have a very puritanical attitude towards language because I have not come across so many 'bleeps' being used in 5 years of using internet forums.

Ziki and I find it amusing that none of the real Shakespearean insults being used for fun on the Midsummer Night's Dream language thread are being bleeped! So if you find us using some strange words to replace **** or ***** you will know why.

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ziki wrote:

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fanuzzir wrote:Let me add my two cents. I hate this story. I hate the way it makes a noble pursuit of a woman's interest in a wet cat. I hate the way the cat is all she can have, all she can want. I hate the fact that she gets the cat and will go on to live with this unfeeling **bleep**. Of course I admire Hemingway for having the bravery to paint such a bleak portrait. But I also resent him for giving a women her, so to speak, say, and making her the wounded little kitty. Go to it.

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ROFL.....and now I will need to read the story, aw shucks!

ziki

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[Choisya]

Are you referring to the 'Message edited...' bit Ziki? I often do this because of typos, particularly if I am in a hurry. However, I disguise my inefficiency by going to the bottom of my edit each time and deleting the former 'Message edited...'

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ziki wrote:
Does it really have to be reposted three times? Did you guys loose it?

ziki :-p

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[ELee]

Thank you, Bentley, for persevering in the monumentous task of getting us through all of these short stories. It does take time to really "digest" his stories, just as it took time and digestion to write them. Hemingway wrote his Michigan stories in Paris after he had had time to process things he had observed or experienced subconsciously. These things had to be "known well enough" before he could create a story about them. I am now reading "A Moveable Feast" and would recommend it to anyone interested in gaining a little more "insight". Of his writing he said:

(to himself) "All you have to do is write one true sentence. Write the truest sentence you know." So finally I would write one true sentence, and then go from there. It was easy then because there was always one true sentence that I knew or had seen or had heard someone say. If I started to write elaborately, or like someone introducing or presenting something, I found that I could cut that scrollwork or ornament out and throw it away and start with the first true simple declarative sentence I had written. ...I decided that I would write one story about each thing that I knew about. ...I learned not to think about anything that I was writing from the time I stopped writing until I started again the next day. That way my subconscious would be working on it and at the same time I would be listening to other people and noticing everything, I hoped; learning, I hoped; and I would read so that I would not think about my work and make myself impotent to do it."

[Choisya]

Yes, and the story is very illustrative of much of Hemingway's writing about and attitudes towards women.


I see there has been another 'bleep'! It isn't the inanimate program that annoys me Fanuzzir, it is the fact that it has not been rewritten/changed despite many complaints about it since last October. Whoever wrote this software must have a very puritanical attitude towards language because I have not come across so many 'bleeps' being used in 5 years of using internet forums.

Ziki and I find it amusing that none of the real Shakespearean insults being used for fun on the Midsummer Night's Dream threads are being bleeped! So if you find us using some strange words to replace **** or ***** you will know why.

Ziki is marvellous at making up these Shakepearean insults - she has just called someone a 'tickle brained mumble-mews' and another a 'roguish, plume-plucked flapdragon' !! Come on Ziki, find one for Fanuzzir. Everyman provided us with a great one from the Bard himself: 'A plague on both of you. Neither one of you has so much brain as ear wax, you whoreson, impudent embossed rascals.'(Henry IV:I) Let's see what the 'bleeps' do with that.

Here are some for readers here to play with:-

http://www.pangloss.com/seidel/Shaker/index.html?

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ziki wrote:

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fanuzzir wrote:Let me add my two cents. I hate this story. I hate the way it makes a noble pursuit of a woman's interest in a wet cat. I hate the way the cat is all she can have, all she can want. I hate the fact that she gets the cat and will go on to live with this unfeeling **bleep**. Of course I admire Hemingway for having the bravery to paint such a bleak portrait. But I also resent him for giving a women her, so to speak, say, and making her the wounded little kitty. Go to it.

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ROFL.....and now I will need to read the story, aw shucks!

ziki

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[bentley]

Thanks Elee..I am trying to get myself through all of the short stories and can use any help there is. I have read some of Hemingway's novels but never took the time (and it takes a lot of time to read them) for the short stories before and I do want to complete the reading (at least the first pass).

I appreciate your analysis and the fact that you are actually rereading these stories and taking the time to talk about the subject of this book club (Hemingway's Finca Vigia book) and Hemingway.

I haven't read A Moveable Feast for many years..It would be fun to have a sequel where we could discuss some of the novels. I think the novels are an easier read because you get the gist of the themes, plots and characters and can follow them through to the end.

The short stories are much more difficult in a way because you are starting from scratch every two or three pages (and trying to figure out the landscape of the story, when it was written, for what audience, who are the characters and who do they represent, what details of EH's life is he writing about, what are the themes? )

And you are going through that process over and over again (maybe 71 times)

I loved the quote you used:

Of his writing he said:

(to himself) "All you have to do is write one true sentence. Write the truest sentence you know." So finally I would write one true sentence, and then go from there. It was easy then because there was always one true sentence that I knew or had seen or had heard someone say. If I started to write elaborately, or like someone introducing or presenting something, I found that I could cut that scrollwork or ornament out and throw it away and start with the first true simple declarative sentence I had written. ...I decided that I would write one story about each thing that I knew about. ...I learned not to think about anything that I was writing from the time I stopped writing until I started again the next day. That way my subconscious would be working on it and at the same time I would be listening to other people and noticing everything, I hoped; learning, I hoped; and I would read so that I would not think about my work and make myself impotent to do it."

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It is strange that he used the word impotent in a way. I wonder if he felt impotent in other areas of his life.

Again thank you so much Elee for your analysis of the stories and your insight.

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ELee wrote:
Thank you, Bentley, for persevering in the monumentous task of getting us through all of these short stories. It does take time to really "digest" his stories, just as it took time and digestion to write them. Hemingway wrote his Michigan stories in Paris after he had had time to process things he had observed or experienced subconsciously. These things had to be "known well enough" before he could create a story about them. I am now reading "A Moveable Feast" and would recommend it to anyone interested in gaining a little more "insight". Of his writing he said:

(to himself) "All you have to do is write one true sentence. Write the truest sentence you know." So finally I would write one true sentence, and then go from there. It was easy then because there was always one true sentence that I knew or had seen or had heard someone say. If I started to write elaborately, or like someone introducing or presenting something, I found that I could cut that scrollwork or ornament out and throw it away and start with the first true simple declarative sentence I had written. ...I decided that I would write one story about each thing that I knew about. ...I learned not to think about anything that I was writing from the time I stopped writing until I started again the next day. That way my subconscious would be working on it and at the same time I would be listening to other people and noticing everything, I hoped; learning, I hoped; and I would read so that I would not think about my work and make myself impotent to do it."

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[bentley]

Wrote Hemingway, “If you are lucky enough to have lived in Paris as a young man, then wherever you go for the rest of your life, it stays with you, for Paris is a moveable feast.”

ELee, I couldn't find my copy of A Moveable Feast and went out to buy a new one. From what I recall, this book had some tender moments in them written by an aging Hemingway who recalls a time when he was in love with his wife Hadley and lived on about $5 a day (enjoying life, his wife, his young son Bumpy, and his cat (yes Choisya...F. Puss).

Maybe a man filled with some anguish about some of his choices and filled with nostalgia.

Once I get through the stories, I look forward to rereading this book which was published after he died.

"If the reader prefers, this book may be regarded as fiction. But there is always the chance that such a book of fiction may throw some light on what has been written as fact".

- Ernest Hemingway

[ziki]

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Choisya wrote:
Are you referring to the 'Message edited...' bit Ziki?

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No, To ELee's original post.
ziki

[ziki]

Short stories for me are like a box of delicious chocolate that one can also pass around, each person picks a bit and hmmms at it. To gobble down the whole lot down desperately in ten minutes I was not able to do.

Now I feel like a military boot walked over the chocolate box wondering how chocolate tastes. It was a very interestign meeting with papa this time. I go to chase that cat on page 129.

ziki

[bentley]

There is also a photo here as well:

Regarding the Paris Years with Hadley:

http://www.lostgeneration.com/paris.htm

As ELee pointed out this was the basis of A Moveable Feast.

[bentley]

Hemingway has had a great many good things to say about Hadley (his first wife)

This is a write up that was curious.

http://www.pbs.org/hemingwayadventure/illinois.html

He seemed to be fairly tortured in later life by not being able to stand by Hadley.

[bentley]

I thought this was fascinating:

A review done on a book about Hadley:

(you really have to wonder how some folks come together)

From Publishers Weekly
Hadley Richardson (1891-1979), Ernest Hemingway's first wife, was born into upper-class St. Louis society, the daughter of an alcoholic father who committed suicide and a mother who despised men. Drawing on Richardson and Hemingway's correspondence and her interviews with Richardson, Dilberto ( Debutante: The Story of Brenda Frazier ) presents an evocative portrait of their romance and five-year marriage (1921-1926). The book attributes the strength of Hemingway's early fiction to his love for Hadley, who supported him emotionally and financially, and theorizes that his subsequent personal problems stemmed from their breakup. Hadley credits Hemingway with giving her a capacity for joy and a sense of self. Their expatriate life in Europe was filled with literary friends, travels and hard drinking. A bittersweet story of young love steeped in the atmosphere of 1920's Paris. Photos not seen by PW. Author tour.
Copyright 1992 Reed Business Information, Inc. --This text refers to an out of print or unavailable edition of this title.

[bentley]

Possibly an interesting walk.


http://www.pbs.org/hemingwayadventure/pariswalk.html

Message Edited by bentley on 02-25-200708:04 PM