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male category



Choisya wrote: Some of the stories are very short indeed




That is a blessing.....maybe we could call it Hemmingway's Very Very Short Stories.

Tell me why does Hemingway attract young males & especially aspiring writers? Albeit cautiously, many of them will try to decapitate him.

ziki
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mistybay



mistybay wrote:
Hi-I'm new to the book club and I'm confused about where the discussion takes place. I keep seeing the fact that the discussion begins today, but I'm not sure where. Any help will be appreciated.




Just here mistybay, you just posted your first contribution.

ziki
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homeschoolmom

[ Edited ]

homeschoolmom wrote:
Hi,

I am new to all of this, but I am excited to join in on this new discussion! I haven't read Hemmingway in a long time, so I am looking forward to it!

I actually got his Complete Book of Short Stories as a gift when I was a teenager (I won't say how long ago that was!)....




Don't say this.... It is a standard sentence of all women nearing 50 or above...no, problem we are 1.born, we 2.die...(maybe you got it 25 years ago...fine..even better if you picked it up now...kudos). Have fun on the way from point 1 to 2. You are lovely anyhow. Glad to see you here, curious about your contributions.

ziki ;-)

Message Edited by ziki on 02-06-200703:59 AM

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Laurel's cats (off topic)



Laurel wrote: My cats are safe, too, because the neighbor who put out a dish of anti-freeze for them moved away.




Gosh, what an Ahab of a creature!

ziki
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samantilles



samantilles wrote: I'm hoping to at least start off strong, but I may wane through the month...




Why do the same as many others? Be different. Start slow finish bold! You will love yourself for it.

ziki :-)
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rant about time



Choisya wrote:
Only silly old blighters like me, with lots of time on their hands, bother to keep up with the boards 'every single day'




I beg your pardon, mylady???!!

Let us not even start this ennui. Time doesn't exist if you really investigate your inner realms; it is just a question of priorities. Time is a social convention.

It is quite another thing to say "this is not important to me" instead of saying "I do not have time". Anytime you want to do something you will find the time to do it!Plain and simple. Howg.

ziki
definitely not a silly old blighter
:-)
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Choisya
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Re: samantilles

LOL Ziki - great advice!:smileyhappy:



ziki wrote:


samantilles wrote: I'm hoping to at least start off strong, but I may wane through the month...




Why do the same as many others? Be different. Start slow finish bold! You will love yourself for it.

ziki :-)


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Hemingway as an icon



Choisya wrote:
IMO it takes a lot of effort to get rid of the idea of Hemingway being a 'hairy chested symbol of American masculinity'(Eby) if women of today are not to be repelled by his MCP approach. He was, after all, a product of his times, and I can remember many MCP's from my youth. We also need to separate his life (or his life told by the Press and films) from his writing.





As it presently rests the real man/writer is burried under heeps of intrepretations and images and even misunderstandings, reduced to an icon. It would make for an interesting paper: Papa as he was not. And the main question is how do I ever find a door into his being? I do not like to assume that it is impossible.

I suspect the way in is not through any study guide but by extremely careful listening to the tunes and rhythms, tracing the facts of history like was he a patient on an analytical sofa. The point of which is not to analyze the person-patient but to restore him to himself and thereby to myself.

ziki
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fanuzzir
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Re: A Clean Well Lighted Place



homeschoolmom wrote:
Ok, I'm ready to talk about A Clean Well Lighted Place, is this where we do it, or will there be a new post soon? I am raring to go! I always liked this story, but didn't remember why. Now, after reading it again, my memory is refreshed!

Anyway, since I don't know how this online book club thing works, do I just start talking about the story, or what? I had some observations and wanted to see if others did as well.

I'll check back later!

homeschoolmom




Look under "Men in Bars" where there is a place to discuss "A Clean Well lighted place."
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fanuzzir
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Re: Join us in February



mistybay wrote:
Hi-I'm new to the book club and I'm confused about where the discussion takes place. I keep seeing the fact that the discussion begins today, but I'm not sure where. Any help will be appreciated.




This is a discussion thread on Hemingway the author, but you may find groups of short story under separate titles like African short stories, Spanish short stories, Fishing short stories, etc. Click on the title and see what stories are listed there.
Good luck and hope you find your favorite story.
Bob
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fanuzzir
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The Hemingway of A Moveable Feast


Choisya wrote:
IMO it takes a lot of effort to get rid of the idea of Hemingway being a 'hairy chested symbol of American masculinity'(Eby) if women of today are not to be repelled by his MCP approach. He was, after all, a product of his times, and I can remember many MCP's from my youth. We also need to separate his life (or his life told by the Press and films) from his writing. If we read 'Hills Like White Elephants', for instance, a less macho storyline can be discerned and this is true of several of what are sometimes called his 'bitchy' stories involving women. Hemingway led a troubled life, especially where women were concerned, but whether his stories reflect his bitterness or whether they seek to overcome it, is a moot point.






The image of Hemingway that lasts with me is not the parodic masculine role (which he adopted as a sense of style, I believe) but the poor artist and aspiring fiction writer who knocked around Paris enjoying the hospitality of Gertrude Stein and Alice B. Toklas, some of the most formidable feminist avante-garde artists of any generation. He learned his style from Stein, and thought of his prose as a noble craft in the way that all the artists of his generation did. Yes, you see the righteous sense of dignity he carries around with him as he mixes with more adventurous types, but I always think that Hemingway has a worldly sophisticated cosmopolitan side that he tried to ornament with an American masculine identity.
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Re: The Hemingway of A Moveable Feast

I have read this sort of evaluation before but applied to the pre-war American black jazz artists who went to Paris. They too, it has been said, were escaping not only racism but the non-cosmopolitan, non-avant garde attitudes of the American public at that time. This artistic censorship was, I suppose, the MacArthyism of its day? (And of course D H Lawrence was driven out of England in the same period for similar 'straight-laced' reasons.)




fanuzzir wrote:

Choisya wrote:
IMO it takes a lot of effort to get rid of the idea of Hemingway being a 'hairy chested symbol of American masculinity'(Eby) if women of today are not to be repelled by his MCP approach. He was, after all, a product of his times, and I can remember many MCP's from my youth. We also need to separate his life (or his life told by the Press and films) from his writing. If we read 'Hills Like White Elephants', for instance, a less macho storyline can be discerned and this is true of several of what are sometimes called his 'bitchy' stories involving women. Hemingway led a troubled life, especially where women were concerned, but whether his stories reflect his bitterness or whether they seek to overcome it, is a moot point.






The image of Hemingway that lasts with me is not the parodic masculine role (which he adopted as a sense of style, I believe) but the poor artist and aspiring fiction writer who knocked around Paris enjoying the hospitality of Gertrude Stein and Alice B. Toklas, some of the most formidable feminist avante-garde artists of any generation. He learned his style from Stein, and thought of his prose as a noble craft in the way that all the artists of his generation did. Yes, you see the righteous sense of dignity he carries around with him as he mixes with more adventurous types, but I always think that Hemingway has a worldly sophisticated cosmopolitan side that he tried to ornament with an American masculine identity.



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Re: The Hemingway of A Moveable Feast



Choisya wrote:
I have read this sort of evaluation before but applied to the pre-war American black jazz artists who went to Paris. They too, it has been said, were escaping not only racism but the non-cosmopolitan, non-avant garde attitudes of the American public at that time. This artistic censorship was, I suppose, the MacArthyism of its day? (And of course D H Lawrence was driven out of England in the same period for similar 'straight-laced' reasons.)




fanuzzir wrote:




Expatriatism was a common means of artistic expression for many American writers, from Henry James to Stein to T. S. Eliot, to Richard Wright, to Henry Miller . . .
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Re: male category


ziki wrote:

Tell me why does Hemingway attract young males & especially aspiring writers? Albeit cautiously, many of them will try to decapitate him.


Part of it could be the fact that his work lends itself both to deeper analysis and a casual one-off sort of enjoyment. A lot of guys seem to like it for the latter reason only.

Another part of it is that he wrote the sorts of things that many guys feel comfortable reading--as in, not too touchy-feely, at least not on the surface. (See above.)

In contemporary terms, it would be sort of like how guys (who generally aren't big readers in the first place) will gravitate to the likes of, say, Vince Flynn or Clive Cussler, while shying away from the Chris Bohjalians of the literary world.

-- Jim
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fanuzzir
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Male appeal

There is something seductive about the offand but direct masculinity that is expressed here: the face to face confrontation with one's antagonist, the paternalistic concern for women, the defense of one's honor but the repartee that makes it sound all so entertaining. Hemingway is really teaching manhood, bringing a terse, urgent male persona into existence. It's also an undeniably self-pitying one--ability to mourn over one's loss in love and have a good drink over it is the "sensitivity" that Hemingway gave a new generation of twentieth century men.
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Re: Male appeal

[ Edited ]
Isn't it strange that everything you wrote here Fanuzzir is anything but seductive for me. This sort of 'manhood' is an absolute anathema to me and I suspect to many women of today, at least in the UK. I grew up with it and was very pleased to see the back of it and the ushering in of the 'new man'. I only regret that I was too late to find a 'new man' to marry:smileyvery-happy:




fanuzzir wrote:
There is something seductive about the offand but direct masculinity that is expressed here: the face to face confrontation with one's antagonist, the paternalistic concern for women, the defense of one's honor but the repartee that makes it sound all so entertaining. Hemingway is really teaching manhood, bringing a terse, urgent male persona into existence. It's also an undeniably self-pitying one--ability to mourn over one's loss in love and have a good drink over it is the "sensitivity" that Hemingway gave a new generation of twentieth century men.

Message Edited by Choisya on 02-10-200710:53 PM

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Re: Male appeal



fanuzzir wrote:
There is something seductive about the offand but direct masculinity that is expressed here: the face to face confrontation with one's antagonist, the paternalistic concern for women, the defense of one's honor but the repartee that makes it sound all so entertaining. Hemingway is really teaching manhood, bringing a terse, urgent male persona into existence. It's also an undeniably self-pitying one--ability to mourn over one's loss in love and have a good drink over it is the "sensitivity" that Hemingway gave a new generation of twentieth century men.




Is he the only one to do that?

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Re: male category

Jim, you're a gem, thanks. Bohjalian on BNnext month ;-)

ziki
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Re: Male appeal


fanuzzir wrote:

There is something seductive about the offand but direct masculinity that is expressed here: the face to face confrontation with one's antagonist, the paternalistic concern for women, the defense of one's honor but the repartee that makes it sound all so entertaining. Hemingway is really teaching manhood, bringing a terse, urgent male persona into existence. It's also an undeniably self-pitying one--ability to mourn over one's loss in love and have a good drink over it is the "sensitivity" that Hemingway gave a new generation of twentieth century men.


With regard to the face-to-face confrontation with one's antagonist, though, do you think that Hemingway consistently presents this in a traditionally macho or manly way? I really don't. I think that, in many cases, Hemingway's male protagonists only confront the enemy (whether a physical or psychological enemy) when no other alternative (for example, avoid the enemy; deny that the enemy exists; pick a fight with someone else in order to forget about the enemy, if only temporarily; etc.) is available.

I really think that Hemingway's men did their fair share of navel-gazing and vacillating and avoiding the problem, which are generally not considered to be "manly" habits. But Hemingway wrote about these "lapses" in such a way that it almost sounds macho when one of his characters pulls a major Alan Alda.

-- Jim
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Re: male category


ziki wrote:

Jim, you're a gem, thanks. Bohjalian on BNnext month ;-)

ziki


Synchronicity strikes again!

And I'm no gem. A piece of scuffed-up coal, perhaps, but no gem.

-- Jim
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