Men in bars?

[fanuzzir]

Answer: what "A Clean Well-Lighted Place" and "The Killers have in common. These two stories, set in one of Hemingway's favorite settings (well, one is a diner), show two views of manhood and mortality.

[samantilles]

A Third story to add to this grouping is "Up in Michigan", one of his first stories. Granted I haven't gotten to the originally listed ones, but based on the description, it seemed to fit. Its the tale of Jim Foreman and a young barmaid/helper who is madly in love with him.

[fanuzzir]

Sure, let's add "Up in Michigan". Thanks for the suggestion.

[Sheena]

Hi all,
I'm new to book clubs even on-line but I am very excited to start, a little lost but I will try and keep up. I've only read a little of Hemingway so this will be intresting.

[Sheena]

I'm a little confused, you were talking about topics and what to read but I don't know what the topics are. Sorry. I know that sounds stupid but if somebody could let me know that would be awesome.

[ziki]

Topics are files= the questions the moderator Bob Fanuzzi posted that he recommends us to look at closely and study and discuss more in detail. Look at the overview, the first page of the book discussion and also, please, keep changing your headings aaccordingly each time so that not all your posts are called "I am new". By now you are a veteran! heheh ;-)
If you click 'new message' you always start a whole new thread....otherwise if you click just 'reply' you are replying to a particular post of another participant.

On the whole main board there you find HELP section where you can keep asking technical questions.

good luck and welcome

ziki

[fanuzzir]

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Sheena wrote:
I'm a little confused, you were talking about topics and what to read but I don't know what the topics are. Sorry. I know that sounds stupid but if somebody could let me know that would be awesome.

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No, forget about topics, just go the stories you like by clicking on the posts. Over time, we might see some continuity in theme or character and then we'll see what general topics we can post. As a moderator I don't want to jump start that general discussion just yet--it's better just to read stories and discover together! Enjoy your reading and check in with a few impressions!
Bob

[jbates12]

Both stories offer sympathy for characters on the verge of death. In "A Clean, Well-Lighted Place," the older waiter defends the old man, who had recently tried suicide. In "The Killers," Nick Adams risks his life to warn Ole Anderson.

Also, in both stories, the sympathetic characters have lost something. The old man used to have a wife to go home to. Ole Anderson was a boxer.

Finally, neither of the stories offers a "black and white" resolution. Nick decides to leave town rather than deal with the situation. Hemmingway writes, "...you better not think about it." The older waiter tries to dismiss his loneliness. "After all, he said to himself, it is probably insomnia. Many must have it."

It's kind of cliché, but I've always thought of Hemmingway's writing as the tip of an iceberg.

[ziki]

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jbates12 wrote:It's kind of cliché, but I've always thought of Hemmingway's writing as the tip of an iceberg.

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It is a cliché of sorts but it is also very true and descriptive when it comes to the sensation his writing evokes. It's deceptively simple and 'thin' on the surface but...keep on looking.

After I reread Old Man and the Sea a couple of years ago that was exatcly the feeling I had...iceberg. The novel scratches the surface and when you really start looking and following on his thoughts it takes you deeper and deeper.

thanks for sharing JB

ziki

[Abati001]

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fanuzzir wrote:
Answer: what "A Clean Well-Lighted Place" and "The Killers have in common. These two stories, set in one of Hemingway's favorite settings (well, one is a diner), show two views of manhood and mortality.

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What do they have in common:

1. There are no women characters
2. Death is a common theme

[jbates12]

In all three of these stories, Hemmingway’s antagonists have dominant personalities (the hit men, Jim, the younger waiter). On the other hand, the protagonists (Nick, Liz, the older waiter) are extremely passive.

Hemmingway and his protagonists handle conflict similarly in that they give up or give in easily. Examples of this in Hemmingway’s life would be his relationships with women and how he dealt with his physical and mental illnesses.

[fanuzzir]

That is very interesting. I am going to read the stories again right now to see what you see. But I know that Hemingway, despite his love of machismo adventure, did heroize in men the ability to see and face their fate with bravery and self-discipline. Kind of like a matador watching a bull with bared horns come at them. The "grace under pressure" shown by a doomed man would certainly be one of Hemingway's most valued qualities.

[fanuzzir]

I love this story for its laconic tone and its tough guy characters. You can easily see why it was made into two movies. Nick Adams, the stand in for Hemingway, is a witness to some great heroism in Hemingway's world: the man who did wrong and knows it's time to get his. I love Ole's consent, his acknowledgment that there is a moral turn to the world. That's what brings all of Hemingway's men together in this story: their consent to the brutal justice that they let govern all of them.

[jimgysin]

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jbates12 wrote:

Nick decides to leave town rather than deal with the situation. Hemmingway writes, "...you better not think about it."

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Nick's (at turns) passive-aggressive and avoidant streaks seem to play out in many of Hemingway's other characters, too. And, it would seem, to a certain extent in Hemingway himself.

-- Jim

[ziki]

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jimgysin wrote:Nick's (at turns) passive-aggressive and avoidant streaks seem to play out in many of Hemingway's other characters, too. And, it would seem, to a certain extent in Hemingway himself.

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Amen.

He delivered brilliant descriptions but he didn't suggest or find any solutions. Thus he remained part of the unsolved problem. He was a Julius Caesar journalist. Veni, vidi, writee but he was trapped. Perhaps he didn't think there was any way out and he was caught in his human dilema with the angst it evokes.(=the whole existentialist rap)

(i.e.story: Mountains as White Elephants)

He also knew that death was waiting patiently, no matter how many beasts he'd manage to shoot. He's seen death into the eye early in his life. And I suggest he's chosen a wrong hunting ground since I do not think you can shoot yourself out of this dilema. Maybe he could have tried to write himself out of it.

ziki

Message Edited by ziki on 02-10-200706:23 AM