"The Undefeated"

[zman]

Let's take on the whole bull-fighting controversy with this story.

I have my opinions, but I would like to hear what other people think first.

[stargazer1]

The undeafeated is a story about bullfighting in which Hemmingway was a true aficionado but he saw it more than a mere sport but has but a rigorous combination of athleticism and artistry and grace under pressure, but also as acts of bravery and cowardice.

The Undeafeated is the story of Manuel who is a bullfighter who's brother was killed in the ring nine years earlier and the graphic dipiction of bullfighting itself and how Manuel is fighting the bulls and how he gets gored and is severly wounded and is laying on the operating table and ends with the doctor's assistant putting a cone over his face so that he can breathe while Zurito standby watching.

Hemingways's love of bullfighting is found in the novels Death in the afternoon and also The Sun Also Rises( which is the first novel he wrote).

Hemingway went to Spain, France, Mexico and Central and South America to watch the fights.

Seen thru Hemingway's eyes bullfigting is a pure classic beauty that embellishes the emotional and spiritual intensity produced by a man, an animal and a scarlet cape draped on a stick and who's performers range from rank amateurs to masters of great elegance and cunning.

[ziki]

Bullfighting? I just had enough of this crazy bull of an idiot!

ziki
my 2 cents

[fanuzzir]

I've seen bullfighting. It is desultory and fatalistic. There is never any doubt to the outcome. I supposed you could take some pleasure in drawing out the suspense and watching how the matador fills in the space between his entrance into the ring and the skewering of the bull with flourishes and touches. That is Hemingway's interest, I'm sure: the brave, perverse artistry that goes into moments that have a sure, painful end. But bullfighters need people like Hemingway to draw that artistry out.

MOre to the point: I'm going to read "The Undefeated right away. Thank you so much for starting this discussion.

[zman]

There is of course the aspect of bravery in the face of a daunting foe, but there are ways to express and celebrate that kind of bravery without torturing an innocent animal.

If it's a fight between two men, as in boxing, we can at least say that the opponents are both willing participants. The bull isn't given that choice.

It's a kind of machismo run amok - a machismo that is not tempered by any kind of compassion - a penis envy if you will. It's like the scrawny little guy that has to buy himself the biggest pickup truck on the lot.

[Choisya]

But what is 'brave' about fighting a bull when it cannot get out of the ring it has been trapped in and when it has been put there to be tormented? It would only be 'brave' if a man (or woman) had to fight it in an open space to preserve their own life. There is certainly artistry in describing the fight, just as there is artistry in describing any bloody battle fully - as in War and Peace, for instance but I see no bravery. I am not even sure I see bravery in soldiers fighting because I would rather them run away unless they had to defend their own lives. Dulce decorum est pro patri mori... To my mind fights and wars are rarely 'brave' and certainly not when a man is fighting an animal for 'sport'.

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fanuzzir wrote:
I've seen bullfighting. It is desultory and fatalistic. There is never any doubt to the outcome. I supposed you could take some pleasure in drawing out the suspense and watching how the matador fills in the space between his entrance into the ring and the skewering of the bull with flourishes and touches. That is Hemingway's interest, I'm sure: the brave, perverse artistry that goes into moments that have a sure, painful end. But bullfighters need people like Hemingway to draw that artistry out.

MOre to the point: I'm going to read "The Undefeated right away. Thank you so much for starting this discussion.

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[ziki]

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zman wrote:
There is of course the aspect of bravery in the face of a daunting foe, but there are ways to express and celebrate that kind of bravery without torturing an innocent animal.

If it's a fight between two men, as in boxing, we can at least say that the opponents are both willing participants. The bull isn't given that choice.

It's a kind of machismo run amok - a machismo that is not tempered by any kind of compassion - a penis envy if you will. It's like the scrawny little guy that has to buy himself the biggest pickup truck on the lot.

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zozoman,
Once when I had a fair chance to go and see a bullfight in Mexico I refused and the whole gang thought I was weird (which I am so that was no CBS headline). Instead I was reading a book by the pool with a frozen Margarita having a good time and there comes my best friend distressed and crying (left in the middle of it when feeling sick).

I still do not know what's really in it but I suspect it must be more than just a compensation. It is a cultural thing, animals were sacrificed in rites. This is a kind of rite of elegance probably loaded with details that would escape me. Like I can admire a dancer, the audience admires the toreador. People use animals for fighting (i.e.cocks, dogs) and I do not know what. Is it a socially accepted way to handle agression? Not sure. perhaps just a fragment of some old tradition? Plus all those Manuels and Domingos are big stars.

http://www.red2000.com/spain/toros/index.html

http://www.idealspain.com/Pages/Places/Attractions/ronda_bullring.htm

http://www.spanish-fiestas.com/bullfighting/history.htm

Hm....seems the links confirm my qualified guesses.
Anyhow I think Bob proved his matador's proficiency on this board beyond any doubts. Very elegant, indeed.

ziki
Shall I sacrifice a sheep instead of the bull to propitiate an angry god? I think not.

Last month we defended whales, this month I defend the toro in sangre.
I'll read the story tonight,I didn't yet, I was busy with wet cats in Italy...what a zoo the literature is. LOL

Message Edited by ziki on 03-01-200712:21 PM

[ziki]

More on bullfights from one link above:

"Bullfighting is the most traditional of Spanish Fiestas. The Spanish people consider them art forms which are intimately linked with their country’s history, art and culture. Pressure groups attempt to lobby against bullfighting yet the King of Spain himself has been quoted as saying that the day the EU bans bullfighting is the day Spain leaves the EU."

I think Spain should be kicked out of EU.

ziki

[zman]

Well, I'm with you all the way ziki.

But there is after all, some bravery in the business. It wouldn't be bravery if it were kitten fighting. To be sure, it's a perverted kind of bravery - sort of like the difference between rape and sex.

[ziki]

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zman wrote:
Well, I'm with you all the way ziki.

But there is after all, some bravery in the business. It wouldn't be bravery if it were kitten fighting. To be sure, it's a perverted kind of bravery - sort of like the difference between rape and sex.

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Bravery I think must be part of it, yes even if perverted in a way.
ziki

[fanuzzir]

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zman wrote:
There is of course the aspect of bravery in the face of a daunting foe, but there are ways to express and celebrate that kind of bravery without torturing an innocent animal.

If it's a fight between two men, as in boxing, we can at least say that the opponents are both willing participants. The bull isn't given that choice.

It's a kind of machismo run amok - a machismo that is not tempered by any kind of compassion - a penis envy if you will. It's like the scrawny little guy that has to buy himself the biggest pickup truck on the lot.

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Hemingway seems to want to restore some dramatic conflict by having two men develop some kind of relationship, but in my mind the story fails because 1. there is no woman character to bring out his weird side and 2. the bull is not Moby Dick, and cannot be made into an antagonist. The story simply read as a procedural, a good narrative description of man facing an onrushing vehicle. I'm disappointed.
Bob