Welcome Rosie!

[Choisya]

Hi Rosie - good to see you back and a Happy New Year! Try this format:-

1) Sign in (nothing works until you do!)
2) Go to Profile
3) Go to Preferences
4) Go to Display Settings
5) Tick Linear format
6) Go to Linear Format Settings
7) Tick Newest to Oldest/Date descending
8) Do NOT tick 'Automatically jump to first unread message in a thread'.
9) Save changes

I also find that requesting an 'Email if someone replies to this post' is helpful, either individually at the bottom of a post or in Preferences. This means that Emails come to your home Inbox in response to posts you have made.

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ROSIE wrote:
VIVICO

AGREED. AM JUST STARTING TO DEAL WITH THIS FORMAT THAT REPLACES THE FORMER THAT I FOUND EASIER TO USE

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[Melissa_W Moderator]

hey it's Rosie! Good to "see" you here!

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ROSIE wrote:
VIVICO

AGREED. AM JUST STARTING TO DEAL WITH THIS FORMAT THAT REPLACES THE FORMER THAT I FOUND EASIER TO USE

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[vivico1]

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Choisya wrote:
Hi Rosie - good to see you back and a Happy New Year! Try this format:-

1) Sign in (nothing works until you do!)
2) Go to Profile
3) Go to Preferences
4) Go to Display Settings
5) Tick Linear format
6) Go to Linear Format Settings
7) Tick Newest to Oldest/Date descending
8) Do NOT tick 'Automatically jump to first unread message in a thread'.
9) Save changes

I also find that requesting an 'Email if someone replies to this post' is helpful, either individually at the bottom of a post or in Preferences. This means that Emails come to your home Inbox in response to posts you have made.

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ROSIE wrote:
VIVICO

AGREED. AM JUST STARTING TO DEAL WITH THIS FORMAT THAT REPLACES THE FORMER THAT I FOUND EASIER TO USE

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I did that too Choisya, what you suggested, but you know what I wound up doing that works best for me? After setting it that way in linear, I keep my page on that to see when something new is posted, but then I dont like clicking on just that message or just the one that comes in the email. I like the threads it is attached to, I am used to that and like to see those around the subject too, soooo, I leave it in linear till something new post, then I switch to thread and find it there, not hard since the new ones are all much darker and that gives me the best view of all the postings around it. This works really well for me, linear to know there are new posts, threads to find where they "fit" in the flow of things.

[Choisya]

Thanks Vivico - I'll have a go at that

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vivico1 wrote:

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Choisya wrote:
Hi Rosie - good to see you back and a Happy New Year! Try this format:-

1) Sign in (nothing works until you do!)
2) Go to Profile
3) Go to Preferences
4) Go to Display Settings
5) Tick Linear format
6) Go to Linear Format Settings
7) Tick Newest to Oldest/Date descending
8) Do NOT tick 'Automatically jump to first unread message in a thread'.
9) Save changes

I also find that requesting an 'Email if someone replies to this post' is helpful, either individually at the bottom of a post or in Preferences. This means that Emails come to your home Inbox in response to posts you have made.

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ROSIE wrote:
VIVICO

AGREED. AM JUST STARTING TO DEAL WITH THIS FORMAT THAT REPLACES THE FORMER THAT I FOUND EASIER TO USE

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I did that too Choisya, what you suggested, but you know what I wound up doing that works best for me? After setting it that way in linear, I keep my page on that to see when something new is posted, but then I dont like clicking on just that message or just the one that comes in the email. I like the threads it is attached to, I am used to that and like to see those around the subject too, soooo, I leave it in linear till something new post, then I switch to thread and find it there, not hard since the new ones are all much darker and that gives me the best view of all the postings around it. This works really well for me, linear to know there are new posts, threads to find where they "fit" in the flow of things.

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[vivico1]

In chapter 3 you see that excitement in Jurgis of the immigrant with hopes in America. He gets a job easily because of his physical stature and is so proud to be "a part" of it all. The description of the size of this place overwhelms me even today! The tour, some are sick and shocked, Jurgis is in such surprise but more in a sense of, hey this is one heck of an efficent way of doing things and I can go with the flow. I wonder how much tho, is his excitement of working and being overwhelmed by it all, he just feels, sure whatever it takes, I am now employed! I love the way Sinclair leads you with analogies at first but then he kind of beats you over the head in case you didnt get it. "The chutes into which the hogs went climbed high up to the very top......the hogs went up by the power of their own legs...with its river of hogs, all patiently toiling upward....into a room from which there is no returning for hogs." Then later Jurgis saying, I am glad I am not a hog. This says it all. The hogs, the poor immigrants not even treated as human, going of their own power to destruction, as they try to push to the top. The river of hogs...the mass influx of immigrants, all toiling trying to get to the same place. And then dear Jurgis, in his innocence, the dumb brute who doesnt know he is the hog! I get it and this is powerful imagery in itself to me. I really didnt need the next two pages of giving the hogs human feelings or attributes to get the point that Jurgis doesn't. It was more unnecessary to me, than the following description of how the hogs are slaughtered. Was this more about who Sinclair was writing to in the early 1900s that he finds it necessary to give this great analogy first, but then for those who may not get it, spell it out the next minute in those couple of pages mentioned? It kind of spoiled the great analogy for me to spend so much time then explaining it in simpler terms. As for the description of what is done to the hogs as they are slaughtered, the sights and sounds, I wouldnt want to see or hear it either and it would sicken me but at the same time, this part not only goes to the actual event of the stockyards but is good to cement in your mind, the horror in that first analogy. But as for the meat industry side alone, stiffen up people, surely no one thinks the "process" is much different today? We dont cuddle our food chain animals and gently put them to sleep with the needle before we slaughter them and something has to happen to the immense amount of them before they look like that juicy steak on your plate. The poignant analogy of what was to come for the innocent immigrants touched a deeper cord in me than the horrible way we prepare our animal food. If you ever lived on a farm and saw or pig or cow slaughtered and cleaned and dressed, or maybe killed a chicken by wringing its neck, and then see it run around on the ground for a few seconds afterwards if you dont hold it and then pluck it and gut it, you know preparing animals is not a pretty sight or feeling. On the mass scale, its got to be, well to use the same word again, overwhelming, but its part of life. That the treatment of humans could be analogous to this, thats the tragedy, thats the point of this whole book I am sure, thats the horror I feel Sinclair wants us to see. But again for me, he actually watered it down by a couple of pages of humanizing the hogs, right after the analogy of dehumanizing the man.

[vivico1]

Well, even wonderful, optomistic Jurgis is now starting to have to face facts. You know, as you read these 3 chapters, you think about how even today, people get screwed in business deals because its hard to know everything and buying a house for anyone can be one the the most anxiety provoking things, stressors, in anyones life! But here, you see Jurgis start to understand how things are really working in the stockyards, hard work doesnt get you ahead, shady deals do and his dreams have so relied on his ability to do hard work and was proud of it too. If you have ever felt the anxiety of major purchases, legal documents, finances, imagine now, adding to it the awesome burden of not knowing the language of the country your in! Not knowing who to trust. Trusting even a lawyer "on your side" to just find out, you have been on the short end of a swindle all along. The foreign born American dream, is starting to become a scary nightmare. Poor Jurgis and Ona, they just want to be married, they dont care about the feist and know how expensive it can be but the older ones wont let them not have it, ITS A MUST! You know, I dont think it was just a stupid thing to do given their circumstances, I think,for them, especially the older ones, it was a needful thing. It was not only about tradition, and they needed that, something of their own past to hang onto, but also, sometimes, if you can do nothing but barely pay bills month after month after year , there comes a time that all of us, we need something that says, hey I am here and doing more than just getting by forever. Its not that its a materialistic thing, its something deeper, something that says, I am a part of all this too and I also desire to partake of things that for one moment in a sad, hard life, is special to me and sometimes to friends! I dont know if I am getting across what I mean very well, but sometimes, even the poorest of us, need to be a consumer. Maybe its hope, maybe its fear but its there. Who has not had the desire to spend feel even more of a desire when we really have no money to do it with. Things are becoming scarier and more worrisome for Jurgis and the family. How terrifying it must have been (or still is) for these immigrants of this time worrying about how every new thing they hear may mean disaster for them all! Don't you find it ironic too, that here you see some talk about the child labor laws that had been changed before they came here, so that children under the age of 16 could not be used as slave labor and so often die and yet, for these immigrants, it was a problem to not let their kids work, that not only did they need the income, but they didnt understand what the big deal was anyway! Why werent the kids allowed to work, how do you feed a family if you dont! Two sides of a coin huh? Jurgis so far is keeping going, more fearful but stoic, "dont worry, i will work harder". Ironic too, considering he has found out that wont get him ahead. But at the same time, it will keep him employed, till he is used up or dead. You really feel inside for this mixed family just wanting a home and jobs, and to keep some part of their dreams. No one tell me if Jurgis dies in this book, I dont want to know it, yet you feel, how long can anyone live in the stockyards this way. If he does, I will deal with that when i get there. I am already feeling anxious for all of them now as it is, lol.

[chadadanielleKR]

This is so true, I really like you analogy between the hog and the new immigrant: two innnocent creatures led to get slaughtered...

[Choisya]

Message Edited by Choisya on 01-22-200708:06 PM

[Choisya]

Message Edited by Choisya on 01-22-200708:11 PM

[vivico1]

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Choisya wrote:
Vivico: I love reading your extremely interesting posts but could I request you to make some paragraph breaks for this poor Brit? Americans tend to use much longer paragraphs than we do and I find your 'fog index' very high and therefore difficult to absorb. Thanks a lot!

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No problem Choisya,
When I type online,I tend to fall into writing like in a messanger or something with no caps or paragraphs. Its become quite a bad habit i guess. Its not so much that we use longer paragraphs, as we get lazy and dont use ANY, til we think about it LOL (ok thats short for laugh out loud in internet lingo, if i confuse anyone with it ). I probably write too much too for a bookclub . Hey Brit...whats a "fog index"? Thanks for the heads up and I will do better

[vivico1]

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Choisya wrote:
Vivico wrote:
But again for me, he actually watered it down by a couple of pages of humanizing the hogs, right after the analogy of dehumanizing the man.


But isn't the point that many humans are dehumanized and that animals behave well by comparison? There is a pre-empting of Orwell's 1984 here I think.

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I don't think the point is that animals behave well, but that we may feel more sorry for an animal than a human regardless of the animal. There again, dehumanizing man. The next two pages dont talk about how well behaved animals are, but instead, shouldnt we feel so much more sorry for it and giving it human qualities.

I just prefered the whole first analogy of dehumanizing man better is all. It made me think what we were doing to man, rather than next drawing my thought to the animals. We already humanize animals too much, dress them up, feed them better, put DIAMONDS on them. I just could see the Upper class looking more at these two pages and feeling more for the animals (hence some of the acts that came out of this book anyway), instead of leaving it at the DEhumanizing of the worker that he did so well the pages before. It seemed to water down the effect, and I think it probably did for the upperclass then too.

[atlantic1018]

The family is in ruins: chaos is guaranteed and properly foreshadowed through the parasitic "old-immigrants." Perhaps the semi-Americans that are attending the wedding are the predators lurking to prey on "new immmigrants." One must live off of another. It is comparative to the failure of both American ghettoization and suburbanism.

[atlantic1018]

Jurgis's optimism is undeniable, yet his expectations and anticipations are reasonable for any immigrant. As a first-generation American-born, I know many "American wannabees" that believe that Americans obtain money through any means possible: they believe money is attained through little work and high pay. Foreigners and immigrants (especially immigrants) expect to be drowned in money; they probably elieve in "money trees." Although conditions in America allow for success and better working conditions, immigrant and foreigner imaginations should indeed be limited.

[Choisya]

Message Edited by Choisya on 01-22-200706:45 PM

[vivico1]

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Choisya wrote:
Vivico: You will be surprised to learn that I used to be a technical writer in the days of first generation computers and my main job was to rewrite American computer manuals because of their high 'fog index' It also applies to many American novels. A 'fog index' is about the 'density' of words on a page and a recommended rule-of-thumb is around ten words to a sentence and ten sentences to a paragraph.







N

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Message Edited by Choisya on 01-10-200707:44 PM

Message Edited by Choisya on 01-10-200707:44 PM

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Heavens Choisya!
I just looked at that page and that wouldnt be a suggestion to us, that would be a FULL SEMESTER CLASS!!! lol. I just skimmed it really, and the stuff of this many words per sentance, this many sentances to a paragraph, dont use this word use that, WOW! Remind me never to write free verse poetry in England lol. Or have it edited there

The problem with analyzing too closely how you write in here is, you may lose your thought or what you really wanted to say, for HOW to say it. I realise that may take more to read how Americans write but bear with us and break it down in your mind, if you will, what we are saying. I will, as I stated before, try to at least break my thoughts into paragraphs in here. I will also try to stop using so many run on sentances. I think it all comes mostly out of letting the thoughts in my head flow down throw my fingertips, unedited.

The neat thing about international book clubs, is that you do get a taste of the flavor of the other cultures huh. I have a friend I met online who lives in England and she and I have the greatest fun with language. What one innocent thing means here, could get your face slapped there LOL! And some things you say there, seem very backwards here,so we do have lots of laughs over language.

If I write something tho, that makes no sense ( very possible lol) or you dont get what I am saying, please let me know and I will try to explain ok? I will promise to do the same. Dang you got me almost counting words now lol, AAAHHH!

[fanuzzir]

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atlantic1018 wrote:
The family is in ruins: chaos is guaranteed and properly foreshadowed through the parasitic "old-immigrants." Perhaps the semi-Americans that are attending the wedding are the predators lurking to prey on "new immmigrants." One must live off of another. It is comparative to the failure of both American ghettoization and suburbanism.

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Fascinating point--ghettoization plays a big role here in keeping the immigrant labor pool in its place. There's never an outside in the Jungle; it's an intensely anti-urban book that belongs alonside Jacob Riis's photo album, "How the Other Half Lives." for many reformers, the solution was suburbanization, but there you have problems of ethnic difference to contend with.

[fanuzzir]

There is a well-known truism in the news business: run a story about a sick man, and you get a ho-hum; run a story about a sick dog, and you get an avalanche of sympathy. Maybe Sinclair knew what he was doing with the slaughterhouse. . . .

[chadadanielleKR]

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fanuzzir wrote:
There is a well-known truism in the news business: run a story about a sick man, and you get a ho-hum; run a story about a sick dog, and you get an avalanche of sympathy. Maybe Sinclair knew what he was doing with the slaughterhouse. . . .

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Indeed, Sinclair picked a very telling setting to demonstrate how much the working class suffered at the outset of the Century. Comparison between men and animals are thus easy to draw. But incidentally he might also make a point of the terrible plight of the cattle which as well as humans deserved a better treatment without unnecessary sufferings. As far as I know, the cattle is slaughtered much more decently nowadays. One of the reason being that stressed animals don't taste as good as relaxed ones!

[vivico1]

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chadadanielleKR wrote:

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fanuzzir wrote:
There is a well-known truism in the news business: run a story about a sick man, and you get a ho-hum; run a story about a sick dog, and you get an avalanche of sympathy. Maybe Sinclair knew what he was doing with the slaughterhouse. . . .

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Indeed, Sinclair picked a very telling setting to demonstrate how much the working class suffered at the outset of the Century. Comparison between men and animals are thus easy to draw. But incidentally he might also make a point of the terrible plight of the cattle which as well as humans deserved a better treatment without unnecessary sufferings. As far as I know, the cattle is slaughtered much more decently nowadays. One of the reason being that stressed animals don't taste as good as relaxed ones!

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Chadadanielle,
I dont think how we kill the animals at the slaughter houses has changed so terribly much today. What has changed more is how the parts are then handled and processed. I have to ask you though, I find it an intriguing idea....stressed animals dont taste as good as relaxed ones? lol, sorry, just had a mental picture of how do you relax a cow and they dont know they are going to be killed, so that cant stress them. Maybe how many are kept in a given pen, or for how long could I guess and maybe those things have changed. Supposedly we seperate the sick from the healthy before they even get to the slaughterhouse but thats only when closely regulated today too. But see, this was the problem I think Sinclair ran into when he said, I aimed at their hearts and hit their stomachs! We are back at talking about how to humanely treat the animals, which is not a bad thing for sure, but its what took away from what he wanted his book to draw attention too, not the animals but the people. Instead, yeah, how things were handled with the animal processing became the issue, cause thats what EVERYONE was eating, everyone being those who had influence.

Ok, I am still tickled by the relaxed cow and hope you take my image in the good humor it is meant. Nothing aimed at you, just the image of that. Good to read some new posts today, thank you for posting!

[Choisya]

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vivico1 wrote:
I have to ask you though, I find it an intriguing idea....stressed animals dont taste as good as relaxed ones? lol, sorry, just had a mental picture of how do you relax a cow and they dont know they are going to be killed, so that cant stress them.

There has been quite a lot of research done into the taste of animals if they have been stressed Vivico. Here is something from from Australia:-

'GENTLE HANDLING of cattle makes a big difference to the eating quality of the meat.

Research at the Cattle and Beef Quality CRC led by Dr Robyn Warner (Vic. Dept of Primary Industries) and Dr Drewe Ferguson (CSIRO) has found the treatment of animals during lairage - when they are held at the abattoir prior to slaughter - can have a large impact on stress, and on the ultimate consumer acceptability of the meat.

This follows earlier work by the CRC which examined the impact of mixing unfamiliar cattle prior to slaughter.

The new research shows that use of electric cattle prods just prior to slaughter can cause a significant decrease in eating quality and water holding properties of the meat.

"When we compared consumer reaction to meat from animals that had been subjected to cattle prods with those that had not, there was quite a surprising difference," says Dr Robyn Warner.

"The Meat Standards Australia (MSA) consumer panel definitely found the meat from stressed animals to be tougher and less palatable."

"These results indicate that the industry may have underestimated the impact that even mild levels of pre-slaughter stress on the animal can have on meat toughness. They tell us we need to take greater care in all aspects of how animals are treated and handled between farm and abattoir."

To complicate the picture, the effect of stress on eating quality does not seem to be directly linked to known mechanisms associated with toughness rather there appears to be other biochemical factors at play..

However the conclusion is clear - that gentler handling of animals pays off in the form of better beef quality, and consumers can tell the difference, Dr Ferguson says.

The Beef CRC is putting together a technology transfer package to advise producers, processors, transporters and other in the industry of the latest findings, with the ultimate goal of delivering even better Australian beef to domestic and export consumers.'