Choisya wrote:
Thankyou for your thoughtful post Vivico. I am very familiar with and have been part of the struggles of the Labour and Trade Union movements in the UK, but am unfamiliar with those of the US. I look forward to hearing more about Upton Sinclair's efforts to bring socialism to the US and perhaps why it failed. The whole world now has an 'immigration problem' because it is now so much easier for folks to move from one continent to the other and because we have engendered a lot of conflicts. We need to know how to manage it better, without exploitation, because there is no doubt that those of us in the Western developed world, where the indigenous populations are decreasing, need the labour from other countries. Perhaps Upton Sinclair can offer some solutions. He is certainly on the reading lists of Universities teaching politics over hear and I first read him in at the LSE in the late 50s. (BTW I read Bury my Heart at Wounded Knee when it was first published and it was also discussed on BNU last year - a very moving story.)
Choisya,
Thank you very much. I lived in northern New Mexico and Arizona growing up and on the reservations there for time too, tho I am not Native American, my folks worked there. Ironically enough,Bury My Heart At Wounded Knee was another book that was never offered in any schools out there. Maybe it literally hit too close to home, you think? Most studies that I have wanted to delve into,have been on my own, even in college. I love to read. You mentioned Bury My Heart as one of the classes that used to be on here...it was the first BNU class I tookand yes, quite the eye opener even for someone who lived in the area and now has Indian Relatives who couldnt tell you a thing about it either. Now here I am in Oklahoma and the native Americans relish their heritage here which is great but hard to believe since this was one of the worst places they sent Indians too...the trail of tears, etc. These are some of the topics I look forward to in here now. I want to be aquainted with what my "formal" education missed.
Choisya,
I think unfortunately, Lennon describes Utopia, or Heaven, but not us
The things in life that seem to ennoble us seem to not be as attractive to mankind. When I was just a kid, watching my wonderful old science fiction movies, something occurred to me very early. The ONLY time you saw the entire world come together as one...was when they had a common FOE! Aliens! When it was all of us AGAINST someone else. It is a shame that what brings us together are tragedies, but I still believe as you, somewhere inside, that we can be more. Don't let anyone give you a hard time for something as God given as "HOPE". Until then, we can take heart that even in the worst of tragedies, such as 9-11, we can see the very best in people too and yes.."imagine" how it would be if we could all be that way all the time. I live in Oklahoma and when we had the bombing, I had friends down there. The sight of it even months later shook me to the core, but what people here did for one another and what the nation did for us was much more incredible. I think what we are reading here, as little as I have read so far, will be a depressing book without a good ending, but thats the truth of what he saw. If unfortunately, it did not help the poor working class and their conditions as he had hoped, and it didnt, and thats a real shame on us, but still, hey I am thankful to his book, for the good things it did do in the food safety acts it brought about, even if that was more to satisfy the wealthy who were more worried about what they ate then those who slaved for it, that safety act and those to follow, did help us all.
I think unfortunately, Lennon describes Utopia, or Heaven, but not us
The things in life that seem to ennoble us seem to not be as attractive to mankind. When I was just a kid, watching my wonderful old science fiction movies, something occurred to me very early. The ONLY time you saw the entire world come together as one...was when they had a common FOE! Aliens! When it was all of us AGAINST someone else. It is a shame that what brings us together are tragedies, but I still believe as you, somewhere inside, that we can be more. Don't let anyone give you a hard time for something as God given as "HOPE". Until then, we can take heart that even in the worst of tragedies, such as 9-11, we can see the very best in people too and yes.."imagine" how it would be if we could all be that way all the time. I live in Oklahoma and when we had the bombing, I had friends down there. The sight of it even months later shook me to the core, but what people here did for one another and what the nation did for us was much more incredible. I think what we are reading here, as little as I have read so far, will be a depressing book without a good ending, but thats the truth of what he saw. If unfortunately, it did not help the poor working class and their conditions as he had hoped, and it didnt, and thats a real shame on us, but still, hey I am thankful to his book, for the good things it did do in the food safety acts it brought about, even if that was more to satisfy the wealthy who were more worried about what they ate then those who slaved for it, that safety act and those to follow, did help us all.
Choisya wrote:
I believe in Utopia but not in Heaven Vivico - IMO we have the solutions in our own hands and should look to our own consciences and those around us to make a better world, not to a higher authority of doubtful provenance. Nor do I agree that Sinclair's writing did not help the poor and oppressed. Every time a book like this is written it awaken's people (and the authorities) to one more injustice and something, however little, is done. I am a Fabian socialist which means I believe in 'gradualism' (which were the strategic tactics of the successful Roman general Fabian). If we look back at more barbaric ages we can seen what man has achieved by such gradualism and if we look forward we can at least 'imagine' that there will be more such achievements. Onward and Upward!
The one nice thing about places like this Choisya, is that we can share our different oppinions while respecting each others
I do believe in Heaven, and a God, and without getting preachy here at all,these matters do affect how we deal with the world, and we are definately in a book that questions that about us huh. I do agree with you that we DO have within ourselves, the abilities and the conscience to make the world a better place. I dont believe God's idea was to save us from all our difficulties but rather, give us the tools, inside ourselves, so that we can do just that, with one another. As Einstein said,no matter is ever destroyed, it changes to a different type of matter, i.e. matter is eternal, I believe that about us too, our souls, or spirit if you will, are eternal. I dont think, this is all there is and once i hit the ground the last time, thats it. I think, well I know, we go on. This is just part of a much much longer life and a good training ground. And God even gave us the right to chose what we will do with it, thus both good and evil do happen, and thats our choice. Its all a learning process, sadly many lessons are learned at the expense of others, at least in this part of our journey, but not all of it. And oh yes, I do believe as you said and I pointed out, I do believe that this book did help the poor and oppressed in some ways. I guess what I meant was , at the time, it did not do the significant things he had hoped it would do about labor.But the book is of such significance, it endures and it has and can create changes. I think his book, this wake up call, is for all the ages to come even, and on a personal level too...what will we do to improve society for all. We do have it in us to do it and with that i say with you...onward and upward! Lets us not as a society lose the lessons already taught or yes, we are doomed.
