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vivico1
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Re: THE JUNGLE : Upton Sinclair & Propaganda/ read sinclair


Choisya wrote:
In what way do you find the politics insulting Ben? And wasn't the 'propaganda' useful considering that it led to important legislation in the US food industry and gained the ear of the President himself? Sometimes, if there are great injustices, propaganda is necessary. Don't forget that the establishment bombards us with propaganda all the time and that the working man has little recourse to the necessary tools with which to make his case. That is why we march and wave banners etc when we feel an injustice is being done. Upton Sinclair was waving a banner for the working man. Today the language might be different (certainly not in any way socialist in America) but the 'banners' still have to be waved from time to time IMO.




BenKitchen wrote:
I feel like the author wrote this book as propaganda for the socialist party not as a novel. It was a good read, but it seemed like the end was written for an educated man as well as some of the speeches. The author was a newspaper man and understood who his audience was. He wrote this at a time when there was no TV and books were entertainment. He wrote an exciting tale, but put the politics in the book in such a way that would be insulting to the average reader today. In my opinion this book was just ment to be used for propaganda.





Choisya, your response to Ben reminded me of what he said about propaganda. Ben, you feel this book is nothing but propaganda. And Choisya is right here. I would say to you tho, without making this a spoiler...go back and read page XXIV of the Introduction. It says what Sinclair himself said when he was charged with propaganda and is very enlightening.
Vivian
~Those who do not read are no better off than those who can not.~ Chinese proverb
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fanuzzir
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Re: THE JUNGLE : Upton Sinclair & Propaganda/ read sinclair

You've all been very smart and civil in your take on propaganda, and I truly thank you for that. Viv's suggestion is a great one, by the way. I will only add the many novelists of the century saw a new form of art in propaganda and deliberately were looking for a new way to write and use literature. So Ben is right, as is Choisya, as is Viv. (I'm not usually this generous)
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Choisya
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Re: Context and background: political conflicts and labor struggles

[ Edited ]

Message Edited by Choisya on 01-22-200706:48 PM

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Choisya
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Re: THE JUNGLE

[ Edited ]

Message Edited by Choisya on 01-22-200706:47 PM

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fanuzzir
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Re: Context and background: political conflicts and labor struggles

Just a question, really (!!!)

I'm glad you're picqued.
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fanuzzir
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Re: THE JUNGLE : For Ben and others: Definitions of Communism & Socialism

Thanks, Choisya! What a contribution! One thing I would ask you: what is the relation between Communism and the state? Does Communism believe the intervention or dictatorship of the state is necessary? Who creates it? Does the party come first and then it serves the party? Somewhere in Communism is a rationale for one-party rule, if I remember.

One thing I also remember from my school days: Marxianism in its early phase has a humanist core to it, seeking to remove the oppression from the proletariat just as idealist philosophers would seek to remove oppression from the human. Communism, on the other hand, doesn't believe in a humanist essence, or thinks that science (that is, economics managed by an all-knowing vizier or party) is what makes us who we are.
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Choisya
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Re: THE JUNGLE :

[ Edited ]

Message Edited by Choisya on 01-22-200706:34 PM

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fanuzzir
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Re: THE JUNGLE : Fanuzzir : Definitions of Communism & Communist States

Thanks so much! Now I think I remember another axiom--Communism is a "withering away" of the state, while Stalinism and Maoism are state-centric.
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Choisya
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Re: THE JUNGLE : Article from a Lithuanian journal.

I found this interesting 1997 article from a Lithuanian journal which gives an insight into that country's attitudes towards the Jungle when it was written:-

http://www.lituanus.org/1977/77_2_03.htm
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Re: THE JUNGLE : Fanuzzir : 'Withering away' (OFF TOPIC) & Chapter 31

[ Edited ]

Message Edited by Choisya on 01-22-200706:26 PM

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fanuzzir
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Re: THE JUNGLE : Fanuzzir : 'Withering away' (OFF TOPIC) & Chapter 31

[ Edited ]
Engels says:
Government over persons is replaced by the administration of things and the direction of the processes of production.

Thank you again, Choisya. We always profit from looking at the author's own words for wisdom. I see in these particular words a premonition as to how governments are actually run, an erosion of the sovereign nature of power and the substitution of its "administrative" role and function. This is very much Michel Foucault's point. Bush, however, has made a strong case for the return of l'etat est moi, for the return of individual sovereignty. A gratutuitious but irrresistible comparison.

Message Edited by fanuzzir on 01-15-200709:05 PM

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Re: THE JUNGLE : Fanuzzir : Definitions of Communism & Communist States/communes and more

Chadadanielle,
Are you at all familiar with the history of the Mormons when they first reached the Salt Lake valley in Utah? Because the winter had been very harsh and many died crossing the plains, and crops were scarce, they lived what was called "the law of consecration".

What they did,so no more would die or go hungry was, everyone was to bring his food and essential items, into the storehouse. Then to each family , it was all distributed according to their family needs, regardless of age, health, previous wealth or title.

This way, tho no one had much for some time to come, but they all at least had enough for everyone to survive. Even the land itself was parceled out this way. And they did survive and thrive in a place no one else wanted.

Later, each could go back to making out on his own, be it farming or industry,whatever and they lived the law of tithing. In this way, men could prosper, and feel that God never said wealth was a bad thing per say, but what you do with it can be. If money becomes your god, then as one of the men in the socialist group in the book pointed out Jesus saying, the wealthy man didnt have much of a chance of getting to heaven. But through the law of consecration, then tithing and offerings, everyone was at least taken care of and no one starved again at the expense of another.

Today, they still live the law of tithing and have one of the biggest international welfare programs for everyone, not just themselves of any christian religion.

Mainly, I just wanted to point out the first part there on how they lived in Salt Lake during such harsh times as being like a commune of sorts and along socialist ideas of sorts.

Brings to mind one thing that bothered me in the book about him going on and on about Christ though. I don't see that as he said,after all Jesus was a socialist too! I think the reverse may be true of some socialist ideas, so it could be said... after all, socialist are Christians too. Its not just symantics or who came first the chicken or the egg. Its that Jesus was the supreme exemplar of loving one another, caring and sharing ones burdens. It doesnt matter if people believe he is the Christ or not, that much about him even Buddist have preached about Jesus. He created, and he came before the socialist. And there are many kinds of socialism too, so I think they have taken a page from his life, not the reverse. There is a difference, tho it may not seem so, one was perfection, one is hopefully modeled after that perfection. Don't know that any of that goes to the topic we were talking about here lol but since I was just talking to someone about the ending, and then I read your post,both things came to mind :smileywink:.
____________________________________________________________________

Chadadanielle wrote:
Indeed,the Kibbutz is a type of community which claims to be based on the principles of Socialism (and, at the outset, associated with Zionism). Since, I only spent two years in such a place my experience is rather limited and Wikipedia's article is fine.
Vivian
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chadadanielleKR
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Re: THE JUNGLE : Applied Socialism in Kibbutzim

As I mentioned once to Choisya, I spent two years living in a Kibbutz where we used to take good care of our cows in the middle of the desert, giving them showers and making them listen to classical music so as to have relaxed cows and better milk.

Wikipedia can provided you with some info about such type of organization but I can tell you some first-hand impressions about my experience of a life which is meant to be organized according to Socialist principles.

The Kibbutz is a combination of a family and a business. Its purpose is to provide shelter, food, education and entertainment for their members and children and parents. It can accommodate from 50 to more than a 1000 people belonging to 3 or 4 generations.

So everybody has to work for the benefit of the whole community: tending and educating the children, cooking, washing clothes, building houses, working on the land or in the factories. So there is one big kitchen and one big dining room, small flats for the kibbutz members, a few giant washmachines, a few children houses for the different age levels, a school for several kibbuzim, a nurse, a doctor, an accountant, a hairdresser, a swimming pool...So, Once you have decided to live there, you live without money, and work for the community and yourself according to your abilities and to the need of the community. So basically, if your are fit, you just can do anything if the Kibbutz wants you to...The Engineer can help running the factory at daytime and do the dishwashing for the whole Kibbutz in the evening. (Usually everybody takes turn for the major chores). But the elderly, the sick, the disabled people, the children on holidays, the pregnant mothers just do what they can.

In the evenings, there are often meetings of committees which decide on the kibbutz daily life, its future and its members activities. You don't own much except your clothes and a few personal belongings given to you by your family and friends or which you brought with you before coming to the Kibbutz. You also get pocket money so as buy a few small items in the Kibbutz shop like candies, batteries, perfume...
But since a lot of goods have to be bought from the "outside" like electricity, water, food, clothes, equipment, medecine, books..., the kibbutz must "make" money. Therefore most Kibbutzim sell agricultural produce or industrial products or grey matter (when a Kibbutz member is a writer, a doctor, teacher...) or rooms/meals when the Kibbutz runs an hotel. All the money which is earned through your work remains in the Kibbutz account so as to benefit to everyone. Therefore, the kibbutz members works for the Kibbutz and the Kibbutz takes care of its members as long as the Kibbutz is profitable...
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Choisya
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Re: THE JUNGLE : Applied Socialism in Kibbutzim

Thanks a lot Danielle for this - very interesting. I love the idea of playing classical music to cows - did they have preferences?:smileyhappy: Did you find it a happy experience and was life on the Kibbutz generally pleasant? How did the children fare being brought up in a communal environment? I know similar much smaller communities here where everyone seems happy and the children do well. I applied to join an Israeli kibbutz in the 1960s after my divorce but at that time they did not take divorcees or single women.




chadadanielleKR wrote:
As I mentioned once to Choisya, I spent two years living in a Kibbutz where we used to take good care of our cows in the middle of the desert, giving them showers and making them listen to classical music so as to have relaxed cows and better milk.

Wikipedia can provided you with some info about such type of organization but I can tell you some first-hand impressions about my experience of a life which is meant to be organized according to Socialist principles.

The Kibbutz is a combination of a family and a business. Its purpose is to provide shelter, food, education and entertainment for their members and children and parents. It can accommodate from 50 to more than a 1000 people belonging to 3 or 4 generations.

So everybody has to work for the benefit of the whole community: tending and educating the children, cooking, washing clothes, building houses, working on the land or in the factories. So there is one big kitchen and one big dining room, small flats for the kibbutz members, a few giant washmachines, a few children houses for the different age levels, a school for several kibbuzim, a nurse, a doctor, an accountant, a hairdresser, a swimming pool...So, Once you have decided to live there, you live without money, and work for the community and yourself according to your abilities and to the need of the community. So basically, if your are fit, you just can do anything if the Kibbutz wants you to...The Engineer can help running the factory at daytime and do the dishwashing for the whole Kibbutz in the evening. (Usually everybody takes turn for the major chores). But the elderly, the sick, the disabled people, the children on holidays, the pregnant mothers just do what they can.

In the evenings, there are often meetings of committees which decide on the kibbutz daily life, its future and its members activities. You don't own much except your clothes and a few personal belongings given to you by your family and friends or which you brought with you before coming to the Kibbutz. You also get pocket money so as buy a few small items in the Kibbutz shop like candies, batteries, perfume...
But since a lot of goods have to be bought from the "outside" like electricity, water, food, clothes, equipment, medecine, books..., the kibbutz must "make" money. Therefore most Kibbutzim sell agricultural produce or industrial products or grey matter (when a Kibbutz member is a writer, a doctor, teacher...) or rooms/meals when the Kibbutz runs an hotel. All the money which is earned through your work remains in the Kibbutz account so as to benefit to everyone. Therefore, the kibbutz members works for the Kibbutz and the Kibbutz takes care of its members as long as the Kibbutz is profitable...


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Choisya
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Re: THE JUNGLE : Fanuzzir : Definitions of Communism & Communist States/communes and more

Vivico: I can't remember the bit in the book where a character says that Christ was a socialist but I do know many Christian Socialists here (Tony Blair is one) who think that what Christ taught was socialism - the brotherhood of man, love thy neighbour as thyself etc. That doesn't make him a socialist of course. So yes, you are right to say that Christ came before modern socialism, although of course the Greeks also wrote about the philosophy of it and some would say that Jesus was following on from earlier Greek teachings which had come to the Middle East via the Romans.

I had read about the Mormons and I believe there are other Christian comunities in the US who live a communal life, presumably based on biblical teachings on brotherhood etc. The Amish, for instance?




vivico1 wrote:
Chadadanielle,
Are you at all familiar with the history of the Mormons when they first reached the Salt Lake valley in Utah? Because the winter had been very harsh and many died crossing the plains, and crops were scarce, they lived what was called "the law of consecration".

What they did,so no more would die or go hungry was, everyone was to bring his food and essential items, into the storehouse. Then to each family , it was all distributed according to their family needs, regardless of age, health, previous wealth or title.

This way, tho no one had much for some time to come, but they all at least had enough for everyone to survive. Even the land itself was parceled out this way. And they did survive and thrive in a place no one else wanted.

Later, each could go back to making out on his own, be it farming or industry,whatever and they lived the law of tithing. In this way, men could prosper, and feel that God never said wealth was a bad thing per say, but what you do with it can be. If money becomes your god, then as one of the men in the socialist group in the book pointed out Jesus saying, the wealthy man didnt have much of a chance of getting to heaven. But through the law of consecration, then tithing and offerings, everyone was at least taken care of and no one starved again at the expense of another.

Today, they still live the law of tithing and have one of the biggest international welfare programs for everyone, not just themselves of any christian religion.

Mainly, I just wanted to point out the first part there on how they lived in Salt Lake during such harsh times as being like a commune of sorts and along socialist ideas of sorts.

Brings to mind one thing that bothered me in the book about him going on and on about Christ though. I don't see that as he said,after all Jesus was a socialist too! I think the reverse may be true of some socialist ideas, so it could be said... after all, socialist are Christians too. Its not just symantics or who came first the chicken or the egg. Its that Jesus was the supreme exemplar of loving one another, caring and sharing ones burdens. It doesnt matter if people believe he is the Christ or not, that much about him even Buddist have preached about Jesus. He created, and he came before the socialist. And there are many kinds of socialism too, so I think they have taken a page from his life, not the reverse. There is a difference, tho it may not seem so, one was perfection, one is hopefully modeled after that perfection. Don't know that any of that goes to the topic we were talking about here lol but since I was just talking to someone about the ending, and then I read your post,both things came to mind :smileywink:.
____________________________________________________________________

Chadadanielle wrote:
Indeed,the Kibbutz is a type of community which claims to be based on the principles of Socialism (and, at the outset, associated with Zionism). Since, I only spent two years in such a place my experience is rather limited and Wikipedia's article is fine.


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Re: THE JUNGLE : Fanuzzir : Definitions of Communism & Communist States/communes and more


Choisya wrote:
Vivico: I can't remember the bit in the book where a character says that Christ was a socialist but I do know many Christian Socialists here (Tony Blair is one) who think that what Christ taught was socialism - the brotherhood of man, love thy neighbour as thyself etc. That doesn't make him a socialist of course. So yes, you are right to say that Christ came before modern socialism, although of course the Greeks also wrote about the philosophy of it and some would say that Jesus was following on from earlier Greek teachings which had come to the Middle East via the Romans.

I had read about the Mormons and I believe there are other Christian comunities in the US who live a communal life, presumably based on biblical teachings on brotherhood etc. The Amish, for instance?
_____________________________________________________________________________________

Christ existed before the Greeks too. His teachings go back to Adam because he was before Adam. He knows all,and had no need to take ideas from the Greeks or anyone. I agree with you on the rest.
Vivian
~Those who do not read are no better off than those who can not.~ Chinese proverb
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Choisya
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Re: THE JUNGLE : Fanuzzir : Definitions of Communism & Communist States/communes and more

Sorry, I don't understand you here:-

'Christ existed before the Greeks too. His teachings go back to Adam because he was before Adam. He knows all,and had no need to take ideas from the Greeks or anyone.'

Do you mean that Christ was God and that God existed before Adam? I thought Christ was the son of God and that the teachings of the New Testament were 'new'. The Old Testament Adam came after the Greeks, historically speaking but perhaps you are saying that in your opinion God has always existed therefore all such teachings and philosophy have existed since time began? I realise that might be a Christian belief. Do some believe that Christ's teachings are the word of God and not a 'new testament' at all?



vivico1 wrote:

Choisya wrote:
Vivico: I can't remember the bit in the book where a character says that Christ was a socialist but I do know many Christian Socialists here (Tony Blair is one) who think that what Christ taught was socialism - the brotherhood of man, love thy neighbour as thyself etc. That doesn't make him a socialist of course. So yes, you are right to say that Christ came before modern socialism, although of course the Greeks also wrote about the philosophy of it and some would say that Jesus was following on from earlier Greek teachings which had come to the Middle East via the Romans.

I had read about the Mormons and I believe there are other Christian comunities in the US who live a communal life, presumably based on biblical teachings on brotherhood etc. The Amish, for instance?
_____________________________________________________________________________________

Christ existed before the Greeks too. His teachings go back to Adam because he was before Adam. He knows all,and had no need to take ideas from the Greeks or anyone. I agree with you on the rest.



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Choisya
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Re: Fanuzzir : An apology.

Fanuzzir: I understand from 'inside information' that the political discussions between Vivico and myself have upset other readers and they have therefore withdrawn, or are just reading but not contributing to posts. I wish to apologise for this and for 'raining on your parade' as it were. As you know, my background is in politics and I see many things through a political 'lens' so I 'homed in' on those aspects of this novel. If I withdraw now perhaps the other background readers will still have the time to engage more in the aspects of the novel which they find interesting. Thanks for your own interesting comments - I look forward to reading that book!
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Re: THE JUNGLE : Fanuzzir : Definitions of Communism & Communist States/communes and more


Choisya wrote:
Sorry, I don't understand you here:-

'Christ existed before the Greeks too. His teachings go back to Adam because he was before Adam. He knows all,and had no need to take ideas from the Greeks or anyone.'
Do you mean that Christ was God and that God existed before Adam? I thought Christ was the son of God and that the teachings of the New Testament were 'new'. The Old Testament Adam came after the Greeks, historically speaking but perhaps you are saying that in your opinion God has always existed therefore all such teachings and philosophy have existed since time began? I realise that might be a Christian belief. Do some believe that Christ's teachings are the word of God and not a 'new testament' at all?


____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Christ existed before the Greeks too. His teachings go back to Adam because he was before Adam. He knows all,and had no need to take ideas from the Greeks or anyone. I agree with you on the rest.

__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________


The old testament Adam, did not come after the Greeks, he was the first man on this earth. Yes Jesus is the son of God and both are omnipotent, omniscience and omnipresent. The terms old and new testament you have to remember are just terms to deliniate the time before the birth of Christ and the time after. They were not terms of the books of the bible, nor was the term bible for that matter. The term bible, and old and new testament came with the first binding together of the books into one. Of course when King James had his scholars working on his version in 4 different places and not all on the same thing, must was lost and much he had removed that was not for "the common man".

God and Christ, whether you believe them to be two distinct individuals, God the Father and Jesus Christ the Son as I do, or one personage as some christians do. They are both eternal. With them, nothing is new. With us, yes it is because we arent all- knowing. Christ teachings are the word of God, he says so himself in the New Testament. The old testament, in nearly every story testifies of his coming, his purpose, also his teachings to some extent, because the basics where there already. He came and in his ministry, corrected the things that had been corrupted since the time of Adam and became the new sacrifice, no longer was man to sacrifice animals to show their love for God, they were to sacrifice a broken heart and a contrite spirit. In other words, give their hearts humbly to him, follow the teachings of Christ and partake of his sacrifice of the Atonement.

When asked what was the greatest commandment of them all, He said,'love one another, as I have loved you, love one another'. If we would do this, then all the other commandments would fall into place anyway and the Utopia you and I both would like to see here on earth would happen.

No, the term "New testament" does not mean a "different" testament than the old. Christ said, I do not come to destroy the law or the prophets but fulfill them. Both books of the bible are testaments of the way of life and the way to God, the terms Old and New, just separate the two times, before Christ and After. After all, the bible is a compilation of books and some in the New Testament are out of order by when they were written actually. Revelations was actually written by John before some of his other writings, but I guess in putting them all into one book, they felt Revelations was better as the last. And then the two words, "the end". that part makes me laugh I must say lol. As if there was nothing after John wrote revelations or no more to come. Its like, well i read it, thats all, the end LOL. All it is an end to, is where they stopped putting the bible together.
Vivian
~Those who do not read are no better off than those who can not.~ Chinese proverb
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Choisya
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Re: THE JUNGLE : Old and New Testaments

[ Edited ]
Thanks for your explanation.




vivico1 wrote:

Choisya wrote:
Sorry, I don't understand you here:-

'Christ existed before the Greeks too. His teachings go back to Adam because he was before Adam. He knows all,and had no need to take ideas from the Greeks or anyone.'
Do you mean that Christ was God and that God existed before Adam? I thought Christ was the son of God and that the teachings of the New Testament were 'new'. The Old Testament Adam came after the Greeks, historically speaking but perhaps you are saying that in your opinion God has always existed therefore all such teachings and philosophy have existed since time began? I realise that might be a Christian belief. Do some believe that Christ's teachings are the word of God and not a 'new testament' at all?


____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Christ existed before the Greeks too. His teachings go back to Adam because he was before Adam. He knows all,and had no need to take ideas from the Greeks or anyone. I agree with you on the rest.

__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________


The old testament Adam, did not come after the Greeks, he was the first man on this earth. Yes Jesus is the son of God and both are omnipotent, omniscience and omnipresent. The terms old and new testament you have to remember are just terms to deliniate the time before the birth of Christ and the time after. They were not terms of the books of the bible, nor was the term bible for that matter. The term bible, and old and new testament came with the first binding together of the books into one. Of course when King James had his scholars working on his version in 4 different places and not all on the same thing, must was lost and much he had removed that was not for "the common man".

God and Christ, whether you believe them to be two distinct individuals, God the Father and Jesus Christ the Son as I do, or one personage as some christians do. They are both eternal. With them, nothing is new. With us, yes it is because we arent all- knowing. Christ teachings are the word of God, he says so himself in the New Testament. The old testament, in nearly every story testifies of his coming, his purpose, also his teachings to some extent, because the basics where there already. He came and in his ministry, corrected the things that had been corrupted since the time of Adam and became the new sacrifice, no longer was man to sacrifice animals to show their love for God, they were to sacrifice a broken heart and a contrite spirit. In other words, give their hearts humbly to him, follow the teachings of Christ and partake of his sacrifice of the Atonement.

When asked what was the greatest commandment of them all, He said,'love one another, as I have loved you, love one another'. If we would do this, then all the other commandments would fall into place anyway and the Utopia you and I both would like to see here on earth would happen.

No, the term "New testament" does not mean a "different" testament than the old. Christ said, I do not come to destroy the law or the prophets but fulfill them. Both books of the bible are testaments of the way of life and the way to God, the terms Old and New, just separate the two times, before Christ and After. After all, the bible is a compilation of books and some in the New Testament are out of order by when they were written actually. Revelations was actually written by John before some of his other writings, but I guess in putting them all into one book, they felt Revelations was better as the last. And then the two words, "the end". that part makes me laugh I must say lol. As if there was nothing after John wrote revelations or no more to come. Its like, well i read it, thats all, the end LOL. All it is an end to, is where they stopped putting the bible together.

Message Edited by Choisya on 01-17-200703:26 PM

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