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Inspired Contributor
Choisya
Posts: 10,782
Registered: ‎10-26-2006
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The Jungle : My political posts.

[ Edited ]
As some of my political posts seem to have caused offence and/or caused others not to participate in this discussion, I have now voluntarily removed them all and hope that this will improve matters.

Choisya.

Message Edited by Choisya on 01-23-200705:54 AM

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vivico1
Posts: 3,456
Registered: ‎10-19-2006
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Re: The Jungle : My political posts.

just a question. How do you move or remove your own posts. I didn't know you could, but I have seen some saying edited by the same person who wrote it and I was lost then about where it was. How did you do that, just as an FYI?
Vivian
~Those who do not read are no better off than those who can not.~ Chinese proverb
Frequent Contributor
ELee
Posts: 418
Registered: ‎10-26-2006
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Re: The Jungle : My political posts.

"As some of my political posts seem to have caused offence and/or caused others not to participate in this discussion..."

Sinclair was a socialist writing about socialism. Choisya, I don't have any problem with your "political" posts, as a discussion of socialism or comparative systems is very relevant to his original intent (heart) - nor do I have a problem with discussing "meat"-related issues (stomach). I have not participated because of time constraints at work and home, but I will say that it would be extremely difficult to separate any aspect of "The Jungle" as a piece of classic literature from its political/social context and intent. Like other posters, I found the intensity of the last few chapters a bit much, and was disappointed that there was not more of a resolution for the "human" component, but it was a most memorable learning experience. Personally, I preferred Sinclair's "King Coal". While it brought to light similar circumstances of human injustice (striking miners), the "story" within the book had more of a resolution and positive forward movement. And rather than tell the reader "how things should be" within a given system, Sinclair poses the question of just how much an individual should feel obligated to give up/change in order to be worthy of the hardships and sacrifices of others and still maintain one's status as a "human being".
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Choisya
Posts: 10,782
Registered: ‎10-26-2006
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Re: The Jungle : My political posts.

Thanks E Lee. I agree that King Coal was a better book and is one which used to be much read and quoted by the UK miners of my father's generation. Are you still with us in Moby Dick - I have missed you!




ELee wrote:
"As some of my political posts seem to have caused offence and/or caused others not to participate in this discussion..."

Sinclair was a socialist writing about socialism. Choisya, I don't have any problem with your "political" posts, as a discussion of socialism or comparative systems is very relevant to his original intent (heart) - nor do I have a problem with discussing "meat"-related issues (stomach). I have not participated because of time constraints at work and home, but I will say that it would be extremely difficult to separate any aspect of "The Jungle" as a piece of classic literature from its political/social context and intent. Like other posters, I found the intensity of the last few chapters a bit much, and was disappointed that there was not more of a resolution for the "human" component, but it was a most memorable learning experience. Personally, I preferred Sinclair's "King Coal". While it brought to light similar circumstances of human injustice (striking miners), the "story" within the book had more of a resolution and positive forward movement. And rather than tell the reader "how things should be" within a given system, Sinclair poses the question of just how much an individual should feel obligated to give up/change in order to be worthy of the hardships and sacrifices of others and still maintain one's status as a "human being".


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fanuzzir
Posts: 1,014
Registered: ‎10-22-2006
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Re: The Jungle : My political posts.



ELee wrote:
"I will say that it would be extremely difficult to separate any aspect of "The Jungle" as a piece of classic literature from its political/social context and intent. Like other posters, I found the intensity of the last few chapters a bit much, and was disappointed that there was not more of a resolution for the "human" component, but it was a most memorable learning experience. quot;.





Thank you also, Elee, for chiming back in with such good sense. As we wind down with The Jungle, let me add my two cents: I think we needed more give and take with the novel in order to abbreviate and focus our responses. Without that, some of the posts aimed too high at the bigger picture and addressed politics in the abstract. That was a failure on my part, by the way, in my capacity as moderator. I will say frankly that it took me time to do my job properly on this page because I was also running the featured discussion of Moby Dick and was quite swamped with work demands as well.
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vivico1
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Re: The Jungle : My political posts./ Thanks for your help Fanuzzir

[ Edited ]
Fanuzzir,
Hey,you have had your plate full and you shouldn't have to monitor us like school children but guide us when needed with some of the good questions and thoughts you have given. Many of the posts went way off course from the political nature of the book and discussing how Sinclair did with that aspect of his book, to arguments about one country vs another today, or the Iraq war even, which none of these politics belonged here.

And I admit that I took part in a lot of those. Yesterday or the day before, I posted here or in the help section, after a certain remark, that yes, things had turned into arguments and I apologized for my part in it, and (without name) to the other or others involved in an effort to apologize to them too and just get on with things. I read all day today,at different times , looking at other courses, thinking about what to take next maybe and found post in so many rooms right back about the abuse they received on this subject USING MY name (so I have been drug through the mud in several rooms now and still I will not respond there) that I was amazed. I did not respond to any of them to keep them going. I guess my apology for my part to them didn't matter. Thats ok, we go on.

I only bring it up now tho because as I said, Fanuzzir, I know you have had your hands full with more than one book and so I want to say, I dont really see it as a fault on your part as a moderator. Its just something that never should have happened period and i am praying it wont in February. I am really looking forward to trying this new format again. May I ask,why does a moderator have to handle more than one course at all? Some classes I would think for one who has to read all the post, could be quite time consuming. And I think you are stating it lightly to say you had this and Moby Dick. Didnt you have at least one other too? That seems like a lot to be responsible for wow.

Anyway, I hope in the future we can do better as readers at "policing" ourselves :smileywink: well, would be better to not have to at all, but you know what I mean. I think your time would be much better spent with the book discussions and not today's political debates. THE BOOKS are the things of interest in here, why I for one come in here. This is not MSN NEWS forum and debates and one more time, I do apologize for my part in the maylay and also to those involved for getting down right mad at them and adding fuel to the fire. It really just diminishes us both. And so again, I say, lets move on and look forward to some very rewarding shared reading of what may be some wonderful books! :smileyhappy:

_________________________________________________________________________

Fanuzzir wrote:
Thank you also, Elee, for chiming back in with such good sense. As we wind down with The Jungle, let me add my two cents: I think we needed more give and take with the novel in order to abbreviate and focus our responses. Without that, some of the posts aimed too high at the bigger picture and addressed politics in the abstract. That was a failure on my part, by the way, in my capacity as moderator. I will say frankly that it took me time to do my job properly on this page because I was also running the featured discussion of Moby Dick and was quite swamped with work demands as well.

Message Edited by vivico1 on 01-23-200711:37 PM

Vivian
~Those who do not read are no better off than those who can not.~ Chinese proverb
Inspired Contributor
Choisya
Posts: 10,782
Registered: ‎10-26-2006
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Re: The Jungle : My political posts : Vivico

Vivico: If I have used your name anywhere else other than in the Help & Information section, when I briefly and politely referred to your post there, please let me know and I will delete that reference immediately. I believe that the one post where I used your name has now been removed for other reasons. I do not think that you 'abused' me in the H&I section and so far as I am aware I did not abuse you, nor have I used the word 'abuse' about your post. I have said that people seemed 'offended' which seemed to correctly described the posts - not only yours - in the H&I section. There is a history to all this going back over several years Vivico and unfortunately you have been accidentally caught in the crossfire. I am sorry about that.




vivico1 wrote:
Fanuzzir,
Hey,you have had your plate full and you shouldn't have to monitor us like school children but guide us when needed with some of the good questions and thoughts you have given. Many of the posts went way off course from the political nature of the book and discussing how Sinclair did with that aspect of his book, to arguments about one country vs another today, or the Iraq war even, which none of these politics belonged here.

And I admit that I took part in a lot of those. Yesterday or the day before, I posted here or in the help section, after a certain remark, that yes, things had turned into arguments and I apologized for my part in it, and (without name) to the other or others involved in an effort to apologize to them too and just get on with things. I read all day today,at different times , looking at other courses, thinking about what to take next maybe and found post in so many rooms right back about the abuse they received on this subject USING MY name (so I have been drug through the mud in several rooms now and still I will not respond there) that I was amazed. I did not respond to any of them to keep them going. I guess my apology for my part to them didn't matter. Thats ok, we go on.

I only bring it up now tho because as I said, Fanuzzir, I know you have had your hands full with more than one book and so I want to say, I dont really see it as a fault on your part as a moderator. Its just something that never should have happened period and i am praying it wont in February. I am really looking forward to trying this new format again. May I ask,why does a moderator have to handle more than one course at all? Some classes I would think for one who has to read all the post, could be quite time consuming. And I think you are stating it lightly to say you had this and Moby Dick. Didnt you have at least one other too? That seems like a lot to be responsible for wow.

Anyway, I hope in the future we can do better as readers at "policing" ourselves :smileywink: well, would be better to not have to at all, but you know what I mean. I think your time would be much better spent with the book discussions and not today's political debates. THE BOOKS are the things of interest in here, why I for one come in here. This is not MSN NEWS forum and debates and one more time, I do apologize for my part in the maylay and also to those involved for getting down right mad at them and adding fuel to the fire. It really just diminishes us both. And so again, I say, lets move on and look forward to some very rewarding shared reading of what may be some wonderful books! :smileyhappy:

_________________________________________________________________________

Fanuzzir wrote:
Thank you also, Elee, for chiming back in with such good sense. As we wind down with The Jungle, let me add my two cents: I think we needed more give and take with the novel in order to abbreviate and focus our responses. Without that, some of the posts aimed too high at the bigger picture and addressed politics in the abstract. That was a failure on my part, by the way, in my capacity as moderator. I will say frankly that it took me time to do my job properly on this page because I was also running the featured discussion of Moby Dick and was quite swamped with work demands as well.

Message Edited by vivico1 on 01-23-200711:37 PM




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vivico1
Posts: 3,456
Registered: ‎10-19-2006
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Re: The Jungle : My political posts : Vivico/truce :)

Ok, Choisya,
Let's forget it then, and move on ok? No more? What I saw in there was a long ongoing thread of people defending what i was trying to say without pointing out any one person and you continuing with it. Yes it has been removed, so lets not do anything more to have to be removed or us removed ok? :smileyhappy: If we feel offended then lets use the private messages to tell each other instead of bringing the world of book readers into it. Heck, you and I could probably have some great contemporary debates in some other forum and just let er rip, but not here ok?

If you aren't sure what I was thinking about the book and socialism. Read my posts about that under the last chapters of it. I even said, I know hes trying to bring out the idea of socialism helping and that no you cant leave that out of the discussion when its the whole last three chapter lol, but when for example, asked how could he have brought humanity to the ending,not lose that part that he did so well or could he (not an exact quote) I offered how I thought he could have done it and really stayed with his artistic integrity of style in the book but bring us more into better feelings of socialism as a cure. He could have done it better, not that I meant, he shouldnt have gone there. What I meant was we shouldnt have "gone there" debating todays political views or issues or leaders so close to too many peoples hearts and that some just didnt want to hear anyway, not here.

I said some things I shouldnt have,we both did, but this isnt life or death in here and I think you and I are both strong enough to survive :smileywink: but lets not "kill" the bookclubs doing it lol.

Choisya, we did not do the one thing I think Sinclair would have wanted us to do, and that is, respect each other's oppinions as "equally" valid. So, in the spirit of equality, friendship, and just good conversations on good books. I accept your apology if you accept mine and we will just be more mindful of sticking to the book topics in the future ok? :smileyhappy: And this can be the last of it then ok? I would really like that, how about you.
___________________________________________________________________________________________
Choisya wrote:
Vivico: If I have used your name anywhere else other than in the Help & Information section, when I briefly and politely referred to your post there, please let me know and I will delete that reference immediately. I believe that the one post where I used your name has now been removed for other reasons. I do not think that you 'abused' me in the H&I section and so far as I am aware I did not abuse you, nor have I used the word 'abuse' about your post. I have said that people seemed 'offended' which seemed to correctly described the posts - not only yours - in the H&I section. There is a history to all this going back over several years Vivico and unfortunately you have been accidentally caught in the crossfire. I am sorry about that.
Vivian
~Those who do not read are no better off than those who can not.~ Chinese proverb
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