rkubie wrote:
What do we get from hearing the voices of Jacob as a young man interspersed with his voice at the end of his life? What more do we learn about him than we could have known if we had heard the story from only one or the other of these voices?
Well I wouldn't say one of the voices, when he is old, is "at the end of his life" lol
. Hey, he's old, but not dead yet lol. You know, I thought the two stories, that of the young Jacob and that of the old, were so well written, they could stand alone and still be good stories. I think following just the young Jacob, to where ever it ended, be it, well dont want to put a spoiler here, so whether it was where it pretty much did end that part of his life, or whether it had followed through until his old age, I don't think we would have lost much, just hearing it from him. On the other hand, to just hear the old Jacob's story, without knowing his story as a young man would not have been near as exciting or help you come to know him and who he is an an old man and why, nearly as well. Even tho his story as as an old man, like I say really stood on its own too, without knowing the young side, what we would have lost is, what we came to know about him that those around him in his old age didn't. We would have been kind of like them, finding him interesting, but really not knowing why, or at least not all of the why and thats really something to think about when we meet the elderly in or out of a nursing home. They probably got a great story that they may not be able to tell now, or chose not to about themselves.
IBIS wrote:
It's a much richer story if Jacob is in full possession of his senses. Although he suffers lapses in memory, he still has a vitally active inner life. I prefer to imagine that he has incredibly rich memories of his youth, and the flashbacks in the circus are his lucid memories. He is reliving what was part of circus history in the making.
If he is suffering from incipient Alzheimer's, that would weaken the emotional richness of his life, and therefore the story. The author would have reduced him to an elderly man sinking into a disease of which he has no control. His old age already causes him enough heart-ache, so being riddled with Alzheimer's merely adds to a perception of him being a "victim".
And I cannot for the life of me see Jacob as a victim. He's definitely a survivor.
The plot is much more vibrant and energetic with an elderly Jacob who is merely old, but still healthy emotionally and mentally. Running away to the circus at 90 (or 93) is much more exciting if you actually choose to do so; how tame and boring it would be if you are merely dragged into it.
What do you think?
IBIS
You are right IBIS, and I think *****spoiler to ending warning*******, had Jacob just been an old man deep into Alzheimer's, the circus guy would not have been willing to take him with him, because he would NOT have been able to tell him all the stories he did, or reason with him as to why he should go instead of stay, like he did. That part in itself shows that Jacob did indeed have the ability and all his facilities to get across what he wanted. Which goes back to the fact that it was his "choice" not to tell them how he knew McGinty was lying, not that he couldn't. He told this man everything. He knew he was starting to lose some things, it worried him but he was also very much aware to keep on his toes, even not to throw too much of a fit, or he might wind up in the place where he said the blubbering woman waiting by him at the door should go and then made a note to himself not to act to upset himself or HE might go there too! LOL. He was a smart old man with a secret is all.
noberly wrote:
Alzheimer's is not just short term or long term memory loss. It can also fade in and out. They can be very lucid and in the moment one day and very out of it the next. That is what I see with old Jacob. But, it depends on the person as to how they react.
I watched my grandmother go through it for about 6 years. And, it was interesting when I would spend time at the nursing home's Alzheimer's unit. It was interesting to watch the different people and how they would respond and react. Some you could not even tell they had it and yet you knew, otherwise, they could not be in that unit. Others it was very obvious.
I agree, memory loss fades in and out. I'm going thru this with my mother-in-law. She told me last Sunday she just got her car filled up the other day, couldn't believe the gas prices. She hasn't driven in two years. And she said she had made a big pot of chili in her kitchen. She doesn't even have a burner, just a microwave. The doctor told me that ALZ patients tend to hallucinate. There are other situations where she believed she was talking to someone or was somewhere, and wasn't. So this brings up an important question. Was Jacob hallucinating or did he really join the circus? hmmmmmmmm interesting
POSSIBLY SPOILER: Did the story end the way it did, or did he drift off to his death, thinking he did go to the circus?
cindersue wrote:
noberly wrote:
Alzheimer's is not just short term or long term memory loss. It can also fade in and out. They can be very lucid and in the moment one day and very out of it the next. That is what I see with old Jacob. But, it depends on the person as to how they react.
I watched my grandmother go through it for about 6 years. And, it was interesting when I would spend time at the nursing home's Alzheimer's unit. It was interesting to watch the different people and how they would respond and react. Some you could not even tell they had it and yet you knew, otherwise, they could not be in that unit. Others it was very obvious.
I agree, memory loss fades in and out. I'm going thru this with my mother-in-law. She told me last Sunday she just got her car filled up the other day, couldn't believe the gas prices. She hasn't driven in two years. And she said she had made a big pot of chili in her kitchen. She doesn't even have a burner, just a microwave. The doctor told me that ALZ patients tend to hallucinate. There are other situations where she believed she was talking to someone or was somewhere, and wasn't. So this brings up an important question. Was Jacob hallucinating or did he really join the circus? hmmmmmmmm interesting
POSSIBLY SPOILER: Did the story end the way it did, or did he drift off to his death, thinking he did go to the circus?
Well Cindy, just try to spoil the whole great ending of the book, by making us wonder if he's just in lala land LOL
. IF he just drifted off, then maybe EVERTHING he saw in the book was a hallucination and not his life. Maybe he was a banker who had just wanted to join the circus as a kid and with the onset of Alzheimers, just imagined it all, based on his past desires, since the long term memory is much better than short term, which is why they tend to tell you about things that happened a year ago, decades ago, and dont remember you coming yesterday. Now this is a lot of maybe's mixed in with some realities BUT I chose to believe every single thing this man said and did, he did! Like IBIS had said before, what a dull book that would be, or sad to read a story just about someone sinking into the abyss and thats it. This is not the banker's version of the revealing episode of "Who Shot JR, shower dream" LOL. Though that would have been some ending to have him die and his family at the funeral talking about him as a banker (or whatever) and maybe his wife was still alive too and this whole other story of who he really was, but someone bring out a circus snowglobe and mention that the one passion he always had and never got to do, was work with the circus and then shake the snowglobe lol lol, and instead of saying "Rosebud" lol have an elephant in it named "Rosie" ROFL!!! OK, now snap out of it with these other endings LOL. It is what it is and its good! lol
cindersue wrote:
noberly wrote:
Alzheimer's is not just short term or long term memory loss. It can also fade in and out. They can be very lucid and in the moment one day and very out of it the next. That is what I see with old Jacob. But, it depends on the person as to how they react.
I watched my grandmother go through it for about 6 years. And, it was interesting when I would spend time at the nursing home's Alzheimer's unit. It was interesting to watch the different people and how they would respond and react. Some you could not even tell they had it and yet you knew, otherwise, they could not be in that unit. Others it was very obvious.
I agree, memory loss fades in and out. I'm going thru this with my mother-in-law. She told me last Sunday she just got her car filled up the other day, couldn't believe the gas prices. She hasn't driven in two years. And she said she had made a big pot of chili in her kitchen. She doesn't even have a burner, just a microwave. The doctor told me that ALZ patients tend to hallucinate. There are other situations where she believed she was talking to someone or was somewhere, and wasn't. So this brings up an important question. Was Jacob hallucinating or did he really join the circus? hmmmmmmmm interesting
POSSIBLY SPOILER: Did the story end the way it did, or did he drift off to his death, thinking he did go to the circus?
What a great other way to think about it.
I'm not in agreement with the fact of slipping into ALZ is "sad" or a "victim". It is actually a sad disease on one hand, but, it is also an interesting one if you watch the people and know them. In many ways they do not change and, in other ways, they do.
Example: My grandmother was very good as a business woman and ahead of her time in many ways. But, she was also somewhat mean. As she slipped into ALZ, another side came out. At one point she was enjoying a cake I had made her for her birthday and asked, "Who made the cake?" I told her with a grin, "Betty Crocker." She looked at me with a sly smile and said, "I know you are pulling something on me. I just don't know what." So, she knew I was teasing her. She just couldn't quite communicate it to the full extent and could not remember who Betty Crocker was.
And, that is what I believe Jacob did. He knew. And, thoughts were there. Just couldn't quite express it except in his mind.
But, that is the fun of books. You bring your experiences to it and can come out with something completely different than someone else.
Viv ... Maybe he was a banker who had just wanted to join the circus as a kid and with the onset of Alzheimers, just imagined it all, based on his past desires, since the long term memory is much better than short term, which is why they tend to tell you about things that happened a year ago, decades ago, and dont remember you coming yesterday. Now this is a lot of maybe's mixed in with some realities BUT I chose to believe every single thing this man said and did, he did!
Okay, Viv, do you believe that "I see people?" Am I really seeing those nightly visitors in my bedroom, have I read so much that I'm putting these people in my dreams, or do I have ALZ? hmmmmm, wonder what's reality ... and I'm in my early 50s! ROFL
Okay, Viv, do you believe that "I see people?" Am I really seeing those nightly visitors in my bedroom, have I read so much that I'm putting these people in my dreams, or do I have ALZ? hmmmmm, wonder what's reality ... and I'm in my early 50s! ROFL
Noberly ... Example: My grandmother was very good as a business woman and ahead of her time in many ways. But, she was also somewhat mean. As she slipped into ALZ, another side came out.
ALZ is funny at times, isn't it. My mother-in-law was very mean, contradictory and not pleasant to be around after a few days visit. We were devastated when the doctor told us she had ALZ, thinking about how more horrible she will become. At this time, she is happy as a lark, freindlier and really nice. Her new doctors prescirbed her an anti depressant when she moved up here with us, and she actually is happy. I think they should have given her an anti-depressant 50 years ago! The good thing, she doesn't remember ever being mean.
ALZ is funny at times, isn't it. My mother-in-law was very mean, contradictory and not pleasant to be around after a few days visit. We were devastated when the doctor told us she had ALZ, thinking about how more horrible she will become. At this time, she is happy as a lark, freindlier and really nice. Her new doctors prescirbed her an anti depressant when she moved up here with us, and she actually is happy. I think they should have given her an anti-depressant 50 years ago! The good thing, she doesn't remember ever being mean.
cindersue wrote:
Viv ... Maybe he was a banker who had just wanted to join the circus as a kid and with the onset of Alzheimers, just imagined it all, based on his past desires, since the long term memory is much better than short term, which is why they tend to tell you about things that happened a year ago, decades ago, and dont remember you coming yesterday. Now this is a lot of maybe's mixed in with some realities BUT I chose to believe every single thing this man said and did, he did!
Okay, Viv, do you believe that "I see people?" Am I really seeing those nightly visitors in my bedroom, have I read so much that I'm putting these people in my dreams, or do I have ALZ? hmmmmm, wonder what's reality ... and I'm in my early 50s! ROFL
LOL, I don't know what goes on with you at night with your visitors, since you tend to wake up seeing them, they could come out of dreams that were wakened. I woke up one time and thought there were 4 spiders coming straight down from the ceiling at me and screamed lol and then they were gone, but not before I checked the whole darn room lol. I dont know, hey I used to be with someone who woke up one night and sat up and said Vivian, wheres (ok wont use the actual name here so will say) Eve?? Now, hmm, I don't know an Eve, as far as I know, they didn't know an Eve (better not have lol) and I just raised an eyebrow and said, I dont know where Eve is,who is Eve?? He just shook his head looking puzzled and laid back down snoring LOL. The next morning, I said who is Eve?? He said, who? He had no memory of it and really said he truly did not know an Eve and I believe him and it became a humorous joke with him. I even bought him a stuffed buffalo and named it Eve LOL. IF this whole story is the imagination of a man in the last stages of Alzheimers, then we have been duped out of a good story to one of lifeless nonsense with no reality even in the end. If this is not real, if he never was in the circus, if none of this happened to him then maybe your trip to the Arbuckles in Oklahoma and all that happened was all in your head too, ooo, and just a part of whatever is causing your night guest too.
He WAS in the circus! lol
cindersue wrote:
noberly wrote:
Alzheimer's is not just short term or long term memory loss. It can also fade in and out. They can be very lucid and in the moment one day and very out of it the next. That is what I see with old Jacob. But, it depends on the person as to how they react.
I watched my grandmother go through it for about 6 years. And, it was interesting when I would spend time at the nursing home's Alzheimer's unit. It was interesting to watch the different people and how they would respond and react. Some you could not even tell they had it and yet you knew, otherwise, they could not be in that unit. Others it was very obvious.
I agree, memory loss fades in and out. I'm going thru this with my mother-in-law. She told me last Sunday she just got her car filled up the other day, couldn't believe the gas prices. She hasn't driven in two years. And she said she had made a big pot of chili in her kitchen. She doesn't even have a burner, just a microwave. The doctor told me that ALZ patients tend to hallucinate. There are other situations where she believed she was talking to someone or was somewhere, and wasn't. So this brings up an important question. Was Jacob hallucinating or did he really join the circus? hmmmmmmmm interesting
POSSIBLY SPOILER: Did the story end the way it did, or did he drift off to his death, thinking he did go to the circus?
I have to believe the story really ended as written. We don't see Jacob drifting into unconscience in any other part of the book. The ending is what clinched the book for me.
His ability to tell the stories of that one summer.
MG
