rkubie wrote:
What do you make of the title, and why does Jacob get furious at the newcomer, Mr. McGuinty, when he claims to have carried the water for circus elephants? Why would these elderly men behave as if they are going to come to blows over this?
Jacob knows by the very idea of the statement and how wrong it is that McGinty is lying. This is important to him for two reasons, this is about his life, everything that had meaning to him and McGinty was using a lie about what was real and important to Jacob, to look important or exciting to the others there, especially the old ladies lol. Considering what the circus meant to Jacob and what "elephants" did, it was almost as if McGinty had lied about Jacob's wife and them there are fighting words
. Second of all, for both men, a nursing home is like a microcosm of the rest of the world and it has its pecking order too and ways of getting on. Jacob had his table with the ladies, his "place" and McGinty, with this lie, threatened to take it away from him. McGinty is willing to fight for it, first to not be seen as a lier and second, to "get in" a good situation with the ladies and the social order of the home. We all fight for our place in the world and their world has become so limited, this is enough to make a stand about.As for the title itself. It's a good title. Just as some of us have said we really didn't want to read a circus story probably had preconceived ideas (and probably wrong ones), about circus life. We all have ideas about the circus life and these old romantic ideas of what its like to run off with the circus, but the reality really isn't anymore true than to say, I "carried water for elephants". It fits for this story.
vivico1 wrote:
rkubie wrote:
What do you make of the title, and why does Jacob get furious at the newcomer, Mr. McGuinty, when he claims to have carried the water for circus elephants? Why would these elderly men behave as if they are going to come to blows over this?
Jacob knows by the very idea of the statement and how wrong it is that McGinty is lying. This is important to him for two reasons, this is about his life, everything that had meaning to him and McGinty was using a lie about what was real and important to Jacob, to look important or exciting to the others there, especially the old ladies lol. Considering what the circus meant to Jacob and what "elephants" did, it was almost as if McGinty had lied about Jacob's wife and them there are fighting words
As for the title itself. It's a good title. Just as some of us have said we really didn't want to read a circus story probably had preconceived ideas (and probably wrong ones), about circus life. We all have ideas about the circus life and these old romantic ideas of what its like to run off with the circus, but the reality really isn't anymore true than to say, I "carried water for elephants". It fits for this story.
ROFL, Viv, I just simply thought he was lying because most circus's didn't have elephants. So even if McGinty worked for a circus, it was rare that they had an elephant. Did I miss something?
cindersue wrote:
vivico1 wrote:
rkubie wrote:
What do you make of the title, and why does Jacob get furious at the newcomer, Mr. McGuinty, when he claims to have carried the water for circus elephants? Why would these elderly men behave as if they are going to come to blows over this?
Jacob knows by the very idea of the statement and how wrong it is that McGinty is lying. This is important to him for two reasons, this is about his life, everything that had meaning to him and McGinty was using a lie about what was real and important to Jacob, to look important or exciting to the others there, especially the old ladies lol. Considering what the circus meant to Jacob and what "elephants" did, it was almost as if McGinty had lied about Jacob's wife and them there are fighting words
As for the title itself. It's a good title. Just as some of us have said we really didn't want to read a circus story probably had preconceived ideas (and probably wrong ones), about circus life. We all have ideas about the circus life and these old romantic ideas of what its like to run off with the circus, but the reality really isn't anymore true than to say, I "carried water for elephants". It fits for this story.
ROFL, Viv, I just simply thought he was lying because most circus's didn't have elephants. So even if McGinty worked for a circus, it was rare that they had an elephant. Did I miss something?
My understanding is.. just as he says to himself when he is calling McGinty a lier,"do you know how much water an elephant drinks?", you dont carry water to elephants, they drink too much, you take the elephants to the water lol. That's how he knew McGinty has never even been near a circus as a worker or he would have known that.
That's why the title fits to me too, just as that was a misconception or wrong idea, so has been most of us who thought this was "just a circus story" and how interesting could that be lol.
Message Edited by vivico1 on 11-26-2007 12:21 AM
Message Edited by vivico1 on 11-26-2007 12:22 AM
ROFL, Viv, I just simply thought he was lying because most circus's didn't have elephants. So even if McGinty worked for a circus, it was rare that they had an elephant. Did I miss something?
My understanding is.. just as he says to himself when he is calling McGinty a lier,"do you know how much water an elephant drinks?", you dont carry water to elephants, they drink too much, you take the elephants to the water lol. That's how he knew McGinty has never even been near a circus as a worker or he would have known that.
That's why the title fits to me too, just as that was a misconception or wrong idea, so has been most of us who thought this was "just a circus story" and how interesting could that be lol.
Message Edited by vivico1 on 11-26-2007 12:21 AM
Message Edited by vivico1 on 11-26-2007 12:22 AM
hmmmm, I kinda remember reading that part (was I sitting at the table with Jacob? LOL) Wish I had the book to read that part over again. I had a hard time getting into the book in the beginning. Thanks for the explanation.
cindersue wrote:
ROFL, Viv, I just simply thought he was lying because most circus's didn't have elephants. So even if McGinty worked for a circus, it was rare that they had an elephant. Did I miss something?
My understanding is.. just as he says to himself when he is calling McGinty a lier,"do you know how much water an elephant drinks?", you dont carry water to elephants, they drink too much, you take the elephants to the water lol. That's how he knew McGinty has never even been near a circus as a worker or he would have known that.
That's why the title fits to me too, just as that was a misconception or wrong idea, so has been most of us who thought this was "just a circus story" and how interesting could that be lol.
Message Edited by vivico1 on 11-26-2007 12:21 AM
Message Edited by vivico1 on 11-26-2007 12:22 AM
hmmmm, I kinda remember reading that part (was I sitting at the table with Jacob? LOL) Wish I had the book to read that part over again. I had a hard time getting into the book in the beginning. Thanks for the explanation.
This is one book I bought, and since it was out awhile and in paperback now, got it cheap
so I can look back and see for this discussion hehe.
vivico1 wrote:
rkubie wrote:
What do you make of the title, and why does Jacob get furious at the newcomer, Mr. McGuinty, when he claims to have carried the water for circus elephants? Why would these elderly men behave as if they are going to come to blows over this?
Jacob knows by the very idea of the statement and how wrong it is that McGinty is lying. This is important to him for two reasons, this is about his life, everything that had meaning to him and McGinty was using a lie about what was real and important to Jacob, to look important or exciting to the others there, especially the old ladies lol. Considering what the circus meant to Jacob and what "elephants" did, it was almost as if McGinty had lied about Jacob's wife and them there are fighting words
As for the title itself. It's a good title. Just as some of us have said we really didn't want to read a circus story probably had preconceived ideas (and probably wrong ones), about circus life. We all have ideas about the circus life and these old romantic ideas of what its like to run off with the circus, but the reality really isn't anymore true than to say, I "carried water for elephants". It fits for this story.
Very well put. Thanks,
MG
vivico1 wrote:
Jacob knows by the very idea of the statement and how wrong it is that McGinty is lying. This is important to him for two reasons, this is about his life, everything that had meaning to him and McGinty was using a lie about what was real and important to Jacob, to look important or exciting to the others there, especially the old ladies lol. Considering what the circus meant to Jacob and what "elephants" did, it was almost as if McGinty had lied about Jacob's wife and them there are fighting words
As for the title itself. It's a good title. Just as some of us have said we really didn't want to read a circus story probably had preconceived ideas (and probably wrong ones), about circus life. We all have ideas about the circus life and these old romantic ideas of what its like to run off with the circus, but the reality really isn't anymore true than to say, I "carried water for elephants". It fits for this story.
It sounds like the men didn't like each other from the first time they met. Jacob feels threatened by McGinty. He doesn't trust lawyers in general and then when he moves in on his table and his friends and starts bragging and telling lies about the circus Jacob can't take it anymore. McGinty is glaring at him across the table and plays the victim when Jacob accuses him of lying. As Viv said, an order has already been established and the newcomer has come in and upset it. While the women welcome him Jacob cannot. The issue is too close to his heart and he feels his very reputation has been challenged.
Wrighty wrote:
vivico1 wrote:
Jacob knows by the very idea of the statement and how wrong it is that McGinty is lying. This is important to him for two reasons, this is about his life, everything that had meaning to him and McGinty was using a lie about what was real and important to Jacob, to look important or exciting to the others there, especially the old ladies lol. Considering what the circus meant to Jacob and what "elephants" did, it was almost as if McGinty had lied about Jacob's wife and them there are fighting words
As for the title itself. It's a good title. Just as some of us have said we really didn't want to read a circus story probably had preconceived ideas (and probably wrong ones), about circus life. We all have ideas about the circus life and these old romantic ideas of what its like to run off with the circus, but the reality really isn't anymore true than to say, I "carried water for elephants". It fits for this story.
It sounds like the men didn't like each other from the first time they met. Jacob feels threatened by McGinty. He doesn't trust lawyers in general and then when he moves in on his table and his friends and starts bragging and telling lies about the circus Jacob can't take it anymore. McGinty is glaring at him across the table and plays the victim when Jacob accuses him of lying. As Viv said, an order has already been established and the newcomer has come in and upset it. While the women welcome him Jacob cannot. The issue is too close to his heart and he feels his very reputation has been challenged.
Kind of a bull elephant trying to protect his place in the herd huh wrighty.
vivico1 wrote:
Wrighty wrote:
ELee, that song is perfect for our discussion. Did you know it already or just happen to come across it? I've never heard of it before.
http://www.danzanes.com/familydance/song_elephants.shtml
Thank you!
ELee wrote:
The old "unreliable narrator", eh? I reread the passage also and I agree that it is Jacob's subjective impressions of Edmund Hyde, Esquire that create a negative undertone: there is nothing outright in the lawyer's behavior to really support the way Jacob is reacting. (It's funny, this tendency is something he retains throughout life and can also be seen in "old Jacob".) There is one point that Jacob makes that I feel supports his aversion to the lawyer, though. While Mr. Hyde goes on about how the community has been hit hard and the country has fallen on hard times, Jacob notes that he's probably "never taken payment in the form of beans and eggs in his life". The fact that he has retained his wealth while almost everyone around him suffers is in sharp contrast to Jacob's father who "couldn't stand by and watch animals suffer" (let alone people). The lawyer doesn't seem to have that kind of conscience. In any case, this experience couldn't help but contribute to Jacob's reaction to Joseph McGuinty, don't you think?
Oh I definitely agree and I was thinking about that too as I reread it. The expensive suit and desk, the leather bound books. I even started to write about it before and was thinking that maybe that was all the lawyer had left of his wealth. Maybe that was his only good suit and he wore it every day, maybe the expensive furniture wasn't as expensive as it seemed, maybe, maybe, maybe... Nah. It was just too much of a stretch. He in no way appeared to be having the hardships that Jacob and his family were having. I just thought it was funny how my reaction to my first reading of that passage was only on Jacob's reactions. When I went back and looked for obvious signs of the lawyers indifference there weren't any. Of course that doesn't mean he wasn't. He certainly wasn't exerting any extra effort to help Jacob. We had recently watched a show that had a situation repeated over and over again from each characters viewpoint. It was amazing how much all of the details changed every time they showed it. I guess I was kind of looking at it that way the second time. I know, I know! I put way too much into one passage and yes I do have better things to do with my time.
