Topic 96: Grammar and Style Q&A

[Brandi_R]

Let’s talk the nuts & bolts of grammar and style. Post your nagging questions on anything from punctuation to paragraphing. I’ll stop by and answer what I can. Everyone else should do the same.

This week’s topic was inspired by the Writer’s Room’s own tiffany57. We’ll start with her question about paragraphs:

Sometimes I have trouble ending my paragraph. . . But, I just can't stop writing.  I know about a topic sentence, the closing sentence, etc.  But I need help knowing when to stop or I'll have a 5 page paragraph.

Good question! There are some cut and dry rules to this in fiction. When writing dialogue, for example, you generally start a new paragraph every time a different person speaks.

Most paragraph breaks, however, aren’t as easy to pinpoint. Start a new paragraph when there’s a shift. Often this shift is in focus, idea, or direction. Let’s say Karl is thinking about his wife’s erratic behavior and is considering a recent specific instance. When he begins to think about how much this worries him, you can make a new paragraph. Also, when looking for paragraph breaks, look for shifts in time and place.

Don’t worry too much about this as you’re writing. When you go back and reread, you’re bound to find moments that are natural breaks.

I hope that helps!

Now it's your turn: feel free to post your own grammar and style questions or weigh in on any questions already posted.

[Winch]

This is a great idea.  I feel like I have some natural talent as a writer, but have a negligible amount of higher level education in english.  Because of this, I run into some questions as I write.  One I have encountered is in what cases I can include non-quoted sentences in a paragraph with a character's speech.  Here's an example:

"Where have you been?"  Joe's question was brutally straightforward.  His characteristic congeniality was discarded in an effort to obtain the truth.  He continued, "I'm not going to ask again."

So, should those non-quoted sentences be in their own paragraph since they aren't directly linked to the quoted ones?

Also, just out of curiosity, one of my english major friends told me a while back that the punctuation "?!" was being accepted now, but I forgot the name he had for it.  Has anyone heard anything about it?

[Capuchin]

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Winch wrote:

"Where have you been?"  Joe's question was brutally straightforward.  His characteristic congeniality was discarded in an effort to obtain the truth.  He continued, "I'm not going to ask again."

So, should those non-quoted sentences be in their own paragraph since they aren't directly linked to the quoted ones?

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They are linked -- they identify the speaker and expand on the way he said it.

It would create confusion if it was turned into three paragraphs. Readers expect every quote that begins a paragraph to be from another speaker.

The only quibble (and it's purely subjective, a matter of style) is that I don't think you need the "He continued" phrase. Since it's all in the same paragraph, it's assumed it's still him speaking, and leaving it out tightens it up, creates a sense of urgency.

[Capuchin]

My major grammar problem may seem arcane, but it really nags at me.

Example:

After splashing water on her face and making the other ablutions of an idle girl, she glanced at the mirror. Since she had never been either proud or scornful of her looks, the glass was almost a stranger. It was a stranger who looked back. Skin made pink by scrubbing, hair tied straight back, and a plain shift: that had been her the last time she looked. She found her cheeks fuller, her lips rounder, and her eyes less innocent. The last few days she had not been pulling her hair back as tightly before pinning it; that touch of softness changed her more than she would have imagined.

(Before anyone pounces on it, I know that using the same structure for the first two sentences is poor practice, but it's a stylistic thing -- I like the effect it produces here.)

The problem is: "The last few days . . ."

That's present tense when/where everything is supposed to be in past tense, and I see no way to rewrite that isn't terribly wordy and lacks any sense of rhythm.

I find I do it quite often, and I usually don't see it until the final proofreading (while I'm wondering how many instances I'm missing).

[YeLLoWmisT]

Hmmmm..... Having problem with my grammars..... and spelling.

okay, spelling first. My problem with spelling is more of a result of forgetfulness(did I spell it right?) and confusion. And in some cases, the harder I think which the right spelling is, the more I got confused..... Good thing there's the "auto-correct" program.... LOL

My grammar problem is bigger. Just like in my spellings, the more I think harder, the more I got confused....

simple ones are easy to handle, but the complicated? no..... Can anyone help me?

[Capuchin]

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YeLLoWmisT wrote:

Hmmmm..... Having problem with my grammars..... and spelling.

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Most of what you'll ever need is covered in The Elements of Style by Strunk and White.

It's a slim volume that's handy to use -- just the rules and a few examples for each. The table of contents is also a list of the rules, so it's easy to find anything you might have a question about.

That and a spelling dictionary (like a regular dictionary but it doesn't give definitions) will get you through 99% of your problems.

Good luck! 

[Brandi_R]

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Capuchin wrote:

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Winch wrote:

"Where have you been?"  Joe's question was brutally straightforward.  His characteristic congeniality was discarded in an effort to obtain the truth.  He continued, "I'm not going to ask again."

So, should those non-quoted sentences be in their own paragraph since they aren't directly linked to the quoted ones?

---

They are linked -- they identify the speaker and expand on the way he said it.

It would create confusion if it was turned into three paragraphs. Readers expect every quote that begins a paragraph to be from another speaker.

The only quibble (and it's purely subjective, a matter of style) is that I don't think you need the "He continued" phrase. Since it's all in the same paragraph, it's assumed it's still him speaking, and leaving it out tightens it up, creates a sense of urgency.

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Winch, Capuchin's right on the mark here. You should include the dialouge and narrative in one paragraph because the dialgoue comes from the same speaker and the narrative informs the dialgoue. To add to this: you might breakup a section like this if the narrative is particularly long, or if it begins to move into subject matter or take a focus that's very different.

[Brandi_R]

Capuchin, I don't think that line is present tense:

The last few days she had not been pulling her hair back as tightly before pinning it; that touch of softness changed her more than she would have imagined.

The verb "had not been" is certainly past.

Perhaps you're referring to the phrase "the last few days," which indicates that this day is the present. If so, that's also not an issue of tense. In any story, there is a fictive present, which is the time in which the story unfolds. The reader is sitting at the mirror with this character in fictive present time, even though it's told looking back--in the past tense. So "the last few days" refers to the days before this fictive present time, which is still told in past tense.

Does that clarify? Or did I completely miss the boat on what you're asking?

[Brandi_R]

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YeLLoWmisT wrote:

Hmmmm..... Having problem with my grammars..... and spelling. . . .

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The best way to learn--and get it right--is to simply look it up. Spell check is great for spelling, but it doesn't catch everything and can even suggest the wrong word. If you have to look a word up more than once, eventually it will stick in memory.

For grammar, the book Capuchin recommends is great. Also, get a good nuts and bolts book on grammar. You can look issues up by topic for quick reference. My favorite is the Scott Foresman Handbook for Writers, but there are many out there that are great.

[Capuchin]

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Brandi_R wrote:

So "the last few days" refers to the days before this fictive present time, which is still told in past tense.

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I'm afraid I don't see it that way.

Combining past tense verbs with proximal deictics is much like using incomplete sentences -- it's allowed in fiction when a specific effect is desired, but indiscriminate use is a sign of sloppy writing.

Stanzel justified it by the opposition between drama and epic, but I lean towards Hamburger and Ingarden.

[Capuchin]

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Capuchin wrote:

(Strunk & White) and a spelling dictionary . . . will get you through 99% of your problems.

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I should have noted that the other 1% of grammar problems will really drive you up the wall, but that's par for the course in anything, so don't worry about it until one crops up.

Don't think you're the only one with problems spelling -- there are some words that have always plagued me and probably always will.

Worst, for me, is how many (if any) repeated letters are in certain words, like the c's and s's in 'occasion' and the c's and m's in 'accommodate.'

And what you learn can flip things on you. I always misspelled 'separate' as 'seperate' until I ran across the mind-jogger "there's a rat in separate." So I now have no trouble spelling it correctly! But I've found that I now want to spell 'desperate' as 'desparate.'

[H-Butterfield]

I could be wrong here but I believe you are using present perfect tense which is used when an action began in the past but continues into the present. You could try "During the last few days" or "Over the last few days" to clear it up. I'm not sure exactly where your story is going but I hope I helped a little.

Keep Writing!

HB

[H-Butterfield]

Sorry that last post was for you Capuchin.

I really dislike Grammar but I understand it's usefulness. I have issues with commas. I don't know why but I can never remember when exactly I should use them.

HB

[YeLLoWmisT]

Capuchin wrote:

________________________________________________________________________

Most of what you'll ever need is covered in The Elements of Style by Strunk and White.

It's a slim volume that's handy to use -- just the rules and a few examples for each. The table of contents is also a list of the rules, so it's easy to find anything you might have a question about.

That and a spelling dictionary (like a regular dictionary but it doesn't give definitions) will get you through 99% of your problems.

 ___________________________________________________________________________

And Brani_R wrote:

____________________________________________________________________________

The best way to learn--and get it right--is to simply look it up. Spell check is great for spelling, but it doesn't catch everything and can even suggest the wrong word. If you have to look a word up more than once, eventually it will stick in memory.

For grammar, the book Capuchin recommends is great. Also, get a good nuts and bolts book on grammar. You can look issues up by topic for quick reference. My favorite is the Scott Foresman Handbook for Writers, but there are many out there that are great.

_____________________________________________________________________________

Wow... thank you guys for suggesting. I'll try to find those books.  Thanks a lot!

[Capuchin]

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H-Butterfield wrote:

I have issues with commas. I don't know why but I can never remember when exactly I should use them.

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I heard that in the days of manual typesetting (standing at the composing board, picking the letters out of bins), they'd put in a comma every time they couldn't hold their breath any longer, and they started a new paragraph every time they shifted from one foot to the other.

I don't suppose that helps . . .

What gets to me is when people don't use a serial comma (also known as an Oxford comma). It can create very odd situations. The classic is: "I dedicate this book to my parents, Ayn Rand and God."

[tiffany57]

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Brandi_R wrote:

Let’s talk the nuts & bolts of grammar and style. Post your nagging questions on anything from punctuation to paragraphing. I’ll stop by and answer what I can. Everyone else should do the same.

This week’s topic was inspired by the Writer’s Room’s own tiffany57. We’ll start with her question about paragraphs:

Sometimes I have trouble ending my paragraph. . . But, I just can't stop writing.  I know about a topic sentence, the closing sentence, etc.  But I need help knowing when to stop or I'll have a 5 page paragraph.

Good question! There are some cut and dry rules to this in fiction. When writing dialogue, for example, you generally start a new paragraph every time a different person speaks.

Most paragraph breaks, however, aren’t as easy to pinpoint. Start a new paragraph when there’s a shift. Often this shift is in focus, idea, or direction. Let’s say Karl is thinking about his wife’s erratic behavior and is considering a recent specific instance. When he begins to think about how much this worries him, you can make a new paragraph. Also, when looking for paragraph breaks, look for shifts in time and place.

Don’t worry too much about this as you’re writing. When you go back and reread, you’re bound to find moments that are natural breaks.

I hope that helps!

Now it's your turn: feel free to post your own grammar and style questions or weigh in on any questions already posted.

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Thank you Brandi_R!  I'll try.  You know what?  I won't try, I will!

Sorry I havn't been on for a while. Busy!

[Inwytia]

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Capuchin wrote:

What gets to me is when people don't use a serial comma (also known as an Oxford comma). It can create very odd situations. The classic is: "I dedicate this book to my parents, Ayn Rand and God."

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This actually brings up a question of my own.  It's probably painfully simple, but I never learned the correct usage of semicolons or colons, and everytime I try and look up the correct deffinition of their use, I can never remember it.  I think I can remember a few things but I can never tell when I'm doing it right or wrong.  The quote above gives me the strong impression that there should be a colon where the coma lies, so needless to say I'm really confused.  Can anyone help me out with this?

[Capuchin]

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Inwytia wrote:

It's probably painfully simple, but I never learned the correct usage of semicolons or colons, and everytime I try and look up the correct deffinition of their use, I can never remember it.  I think I can remember a few things but I can never tell when I'm doing it right or wrong. 

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Colons are easy: in fiction, don't use them.

The formal rule, according to Strunk & White, is on page seven of The Elements of Style: "7. Use a colon after an independent clause to introduce a list of particulars, an appositive, an amplification, or an illustrative quotation."

I've just given two examples. In the first line (Colons are easy: . . .), the colon sets off something that amplifies the first clause.

In the second (The formal rule . . .), the colon sets off a quotation.

But this is non-fiction which requires a specific structure.

Fiction marches to a slightly different drummer. I doubt you'll ever need the strict formality the colon represents. In my estimation, it's best to keep to "if in doubt, leave it out" -- it's better to use a comma or dash than to insert a colon where it might not belong.

Having said that, I'm sure someone will point out that I used one in the paragraph I posted somewhere above. "Skin made pink by scrubbing, hair tied straight back, and a plain shift: that had been her the last time she looked."

Why did I do that? Simple answer: I'm perverse.

More complete answer: the highly formal nature of the colon reinforces the relatively austere picture I'm trying to paint, and since the sentence structure, word choice, and punctuation which follow it are more relaxed, it gives the impression of a greater disparity between what she was like before and what she is seeing at that moment. It's purely a matter of taste/style. (And there are some who'll claim it's wrong, but I see it as a simple inversion of standard structure, and if it's good enough for Wolfe, it's good enough for me.)

In fiction, the semi-colon has only one real use -- to join two independent clauses. (A colon might have been suitable there, but I know a dash works although it is less formal than a colon.)

(In case the phrase "independent clause" is a bit worrisome, just think of it as something that can stand as its own sentence.)

An example is the last line of the paragraph I posted: "The last few days she had not been pulling her hair back as tightly before pinning it; that touch of softness changed her more than she would have imagined."

Since these are independent clauses, they could just as easily have been written as two sentences: ". . . before pinning it. That touch of softness . . . ."

Why did I use a semi-colon instead? It's a matter of taste. I felt a period would have broken the flow, would have been a jolting stop when I wanted the reader to carry the thought through.

I could also have used a conjunction. ". . . before pinning it, and that touch . . ." That decision was also a matter of taste. I'd used the word 'and' in virtually every sentence in that paragraph, so I felt it seemed as if I was continually heaping things onto the reader (and this, and that, and the other thing . . .). Also, even though it's almost invisible, the word 'and' there would have been more intrusive than a semi-colon.

If you're worried about colon and semi-colon use in essays, technical writing, or other formal works, then there is only one piece of advice I can give: follow whatever instructions and/or stylebook you're supposed to follow at that time, in that place, for that writing. There are often subtle variations in the rules, and what could get you an "A" from one teacher might earn you an "F" from another.

[Capuchin]

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H-Butterfield wrote:

 You could try "During the last few days" or "Over the last few days" to clear it up. I'm not sure exactly where your story is going but I hope I helped a little.

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To be absolutely grammatically correct, it should be something like: "In the days between her return to the village and the opening of the fair, she had not been pulling . . . ," but that's wordy. Worse, it has no flow, no life -- it's too stilted, too formal, and too technical.

I don't know if the story is 'going anywhere.' I've finished it and am shopping for an agent. The novel will probably never see print.

As for the character 'going anywhere' -- she's a maid/serving girl at an inn in a small village. She thinks she's sophisticated and wise beyond her years because she grew up surrounded by travelers from all over the world.

The story starts with her at the age when she'll have to either marry any boy who wants her or become an attic girl (the inn is also the local brothel). To forget her problems for a few days, she lets a wizard take her to an abandoned city he hopes to pillage. (He needs her because ancient spells keep his kind out of the city.) There, she meets and befriends a demon.

That's Chapter One.

In Chapter Two, she returns home without the riches the wizard had promised, but she finds out that an old stone she picked up on her 'adventure' is incredibly valuable. A traveling merchant agrees to take it to the seacoast to sell for her and gives her, as a good-faith deposit, more than it would cost for her to live the rest of her life as a guest of the inn.

In Chapter Three, which contains the paragraph I posted, she's going through the whole angst of what she's lost (as either a wife or an attic girl, she'd have had a well-defined place in the scheme of things, been a part of the village, but now she's too rich to either wed or bed).

The rest of the book basically just shows what kind of trouble she can get herself into.

She started out as a rather emotionally twisted little creature full of naive bravado, and she ends up fairly well-balanced with a bit of real confidence.

I don't really know if she could 'go' anywhere from there.

(And I realize no one is probably interested in all this background for one rather nondescript paragraph, but writing this all out has kept me from having to work on my current project which has hit a hard-slogging part.)

[Brandi_R]

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Capuchin wrote:

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H-Butterfield wrote:

I have issues with commas. I don't know why but I can never remember when exactly I should use them.

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I heard that in the days of manual typesetting (standing at the composing board, picking the letters out of bins), they'd put in a comma every time they couldn't hold their breath any longer, and they started a new paragraph every time they shifted from one foot to the other.

I don't suppose that helps . . .

What gets to me is when people don't use a serial comma (also known as an Oxford comma). It can create very odd situations. The classic is: "I dedicate this book to my parents, Ayn Rand and God."

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Ha! That's a great example of the confusion that can crop up. Sometimes those little nuggets are the best ways to remember what you should do.

This also brings up an interesting bit of difficulty in the world of grammar. Not all grammar books or schools of thought on grammar agree. That can add to the confusion.