I'm guilty of bringing up the whole flower thing. I have a little show and tell - the Reynold's portrait of Mrs Lloyd that Lily was recreating at the "tableau" party. A little risque wouldn't you say with all the flimsy clinging fabric?? Mrs Lloyd is carving the name "Lloyd" in a tree, couldn't you just imagine Lily doing the same except with the name Selden?

http://artsci.wustl.edu/~artarch/18thcentury/image29.html

Good find, Caretta! Here are a couple of other views of the portrait:

http://www.abcgallery.com/R/reynolds/reynolds143.html

http://www.abcgallery.com/R/reynolds/reynolds144.html

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Caretta wrote:
I'm guilty of bringing up the whole flower thing. I have a little show and tell - the Reynold's portrait of Mrs Lloyd that Lily was recreating at the "tableau" party. A little risque wouldn't you say with all the flimsy clinging fabric?? Mrs Lloyd is carving the name "Lloyd" in a tree, couldn't you just imagine Lily doing the same except with the name Selden?

http://artsci.wustl.edu/~artarch/18thcentury/image29.html

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Yes, she must have been mixing with a 'racy' set. Your post reminded me that when I was in Italy recently I visited the Villa Carlotta where there is a 18thC 'Gentlemens' Card Room' which has some risque paintings in it, flimsily draped nudes etc. The ladies' Sitting Room has much more respectable religious paintings. Gentlemen's libraries in this era also had many pornographic books/drawings hidden behind elaborately tooled and innocent looking leather covers.

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Caretta wrote:
I'm guilty of bringing up the whole flower thing. I have a little show and tell - the Reynold's portrait of Mrs Lloyd that Lily was recreating at the "tableau" party. A little risque wouldn't you say with all the flimsy clinging fabric?? Mrs Lloyd is carving the name "Lloyd" in a tree, couldn't you just imagine Lily doing the same except with the name Selden?

http://artsci.wustl.edu/~artarch/18thcentury/image29.html

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I like EW and Fitzgerald equally. We just have a larger group here to explore different points.

I was staying up all night on the computers long before I joined BN. I'm not a morning person, and I'm self-employed

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kiakar wrote:
Foxycat, you sound so happy doing this club, staying up all night and posting little tidbits. EW brings out the best in you! More so than Fitzgerald did! Even though I enjoyed you in that too!

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Caretta--
It's a wonderful find. That indeed IS a very revealing outfit for 1775. Are there any other Reynolds pics of Mrs Lloyd? Just saw the film and the tableau differs quite a bit. She's sitting and wears a very elaborate black hat. I've seen tableaux done in other novels too, but can't think of them. Was it "Vanity Fair" or Austen?

No need to apologize about the flowers. You can get an entire liberal arts education following EW's many little side roads. I love it.

Just found the answer about the painting. In the film , the director used Watteau’s Ceres, a better showcase for Gillian Anderson (not tall and with flowing titian hair) than the painting used for the tall dark-haired Lily in the book. There's also a short history of tableaux in several novels, including "HOM." And the novel I had read recently with tableaux was "Jane Eyre." And since I'm here all alone tonight, I can answer my own questions.
G'night, Rochelle.
G'night Foxycat.

http://atthelighthouse.wordpress.com/2007/07/15/13/

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foxycat wrote:
Caretta--
It's a wonderful find. That indeed IS a very revealing outfit for 1775. Are there any other Reynolds pics of Mrs Lloyd? Just saw the film and the tableau differs quite a bit. She's sitting and wears a very elaborate black hat. I've seen tableaux done in other novels too, but can't think of them. Was it "Vanity Fair" or Austen?

No need to apologize about the flowers. You can get an entire liberal arts education following EW's many little side roads. I love it.

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In the UK Tableau Vivant was a way of getting around the strict censorship of nudity in the theatre. As long as nudes or scantily dressed ladies (never men!) did not move, they could display themselves on stage.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tableaux_Vivant

They became quite a vogue in the 19C and in the 1930s a Mrs Henderson founded The Windmill Theatre and started to prsent them on a commercial basis, following the example of the Folies Bergeres at the Moulin Rouge in Paris. They continued during the war and became a great British institution until the censorship laws changed in the 1960s and 'moving' nudes on stage made them less interesting. A film was made about them with Dame Judi Dench playing Mrs Henderson:-

http://reelreviews.blogspot.com/2006/02/mrs-henderson-presents.html

Well going from the sublime to the ridiculous, the only other tableaux I can think of is the "Music Man" when the ladies of River City are doing the "Grecian Urns".

Exactly the same, Caretta, but they also show up in "Jane Eyre" at Rochester's party, and in "Little Woman." "The Music Man" took place somewhere between 1890 and 1910, judging by the costumes.

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Caretta wrote:
Well going from the sublime to the ridiculous, the only other tableaux I can think of is the "Music Man" when the ladies of River City are doing the "Grecian Urns".

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Caretta--

Pedsphleb asked to know where we are. I'm working on Book II in preparation for next week's discussion. Am on chapter 2 now.

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Choisya wrote:
Good point about white being associated with death, especially white lilies.

Valentines did become very popular in Victorian times, mainly because of the invention of the 'penny post' which meant they could be posted anonymously and secretly to lovers.

http://www.indiana.edu/~liblilly/valentines/valentine1.html

Another point about Rosedale is that his name is Anglicised - it might formerly have been something like Rosebaum or Rosenstein. Many Jews changed their names to avoid discrimination or just to assimilate. Rosedale is a good change because it signifies something very 'English' and rural.

http://www.jrbooksonline.com/Intl_Jew_full_version/ij70.htm

http://www.geocities.com/jewish_jewelry/genealogy.html

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gluepot wrote:

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foxycat wrote:
Choisya--

Ah,, yes, I had forgotten about the Victorian language of flowers. That list is wonderful. And thanks so much for the links to EW's gardens.Lily could also be "LILY (GENERAL) - Majesty & Honor, Purity of Heart." Which rose do you think Sim Rosedale is, the Green Rose (I'm from Mars)?

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Thanks for the links, Choisya. The not-so-nice Valentine is a new one for me.

Richard

I'm on Chapter 5 (Book II) reading in between loads of laundry.

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Caretta wrote:
I'm on Chapter 5 (Book II) reading in between loads of laundry.

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Chapter 4, here, in between loads of WEEDS. We had 2 big shady oak trees removed from the front yard, and then it rained in NE Florida for two weeks. I can go out there any day, any time of the day or night and pull up weeds by the handful. It's incredible.

Richard

Finished Chapter 2, Book 2, this morning. I am likely to just be behind on this one -- have a multitude of meetings this week. Just go for it.

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Caretta wrote:
I'm on Chapter 5 (Book II) reading in between loads of laundry.

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gluepot wrote:
Chapter 4, here, in between loads of WEEDS. We had 2 big shady oak trees removed from the front yard, and then it rained in NE Florida for two weeks. I can go out there any day, any time of the day or night and pull up weeds by the handful. It's incredible.

Richard

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Hahahahahahaaa!! The Grecian Urns! Would that our Lily were so clever. Haha!
Alas, I fear our heroine is a bit of a Loveable Loser. Poor Lily. Every time she makes a choice she ends up turning herself in a direction most likely to contribute to her undoing. Still, she gives us hope. Her last best asset (pun intended) is her body. She is lovely to everyone. The tableau exploits that. Even though there are jealous, therefore dangerous, women around, it's a man she's after. In such a lovely way she reveals herself to their baser intsincts. You wouldn't think her so naive when she can be so brilliantly beautiful, but she fell right into money trap with Gus, and then,the Italian trap on the cruise. But, who does she have to turn to? Her judgement is limited by her experience and she really has no mentor to guide her, no confidante she'd listen to. There's part of the problem, too. Would she listen?
Gillian Anderson did portray the essence of Lily, I think. And, Dan Akroyd, as Gus, was his best ever.
btw, I've been away from the computer for a few days. This is a great discussion and I'm just catching up so my reply is somewhat scattered...

You're perceptive, receptive. Judy Trenor was her confidante, but she didn't ask Judy about the cruise, or if she did ask, she didn't listen. I suspect her mother didn't feed her much common sense when she was alive. You DON'T go on a cruise with a frenemy and her lover, together with an unhappy husband who has his eye on you.

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receptivereader wrote:
... You wouldn't think her so naive when she can be so brilliantly beautiful, but she fell right into money trap with Gus, and then,the Italian trap on the cruise. But, who does she have to turn to? Her judgement is limited by her experience and she really has no mentor to guide her, no confidante she'd listen to. There's part of the problem, too. Would she listen?
...

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"frenemy" is such a good term! It really defines.
Yes, Judy Trenor is a confidante to a point. I think Lily's insecurities keep her from being completely open with anyone. She doesn't really divulge how her circumstances w/ Gus have changed or how she's going to handle it. I've finished the book, so don't want to give anything away. Having been taken advantage of by Gus, why does she feel the need to repay him? He was quite manipulative and certainly led her on. If she had a mentor, she may have learned that she wasn't responsible for how far Gus let it go. Lily takes on a lot. This is where her integrity outshines that of the social set she aspires to.

So quiet here tonight, and I'm headed early to bed.

Perceptive again, receptive. Lily has an old-fashioned and also distorted sense of honor (there's an outdated word!) Legally, she would not have to return the money, but her integrity says otherwise. And if everyone already knew about the money, now they'll know she has returned it. As if they'll still care by then!

As for Gus, I doubt this is the first time he propositioned anyone. They all do it because their own marriages are largely loveless. Judy knows about him, if not about lily.

I think pedsphleb or peppermill made up "frenemy."

And yes, Sssshhhh about the rest. I haven't finished the book yet this time around, but I had read it before.

Message Edited by foxycat on 10-16-2007 11:54 PM

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foxycat wrote:...I think pedsphleb or peppermill made up "frenemy."

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Thanks for thinking I might possibly be clever enough to come up with that one! But credit definitely goes to someone else -- probably Melissa, but it is too early in the morning to track it down.

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foxycat wrote:
So quiet here tonight, and I'm headed early to bed.

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Sorry to miss you, Rochelle. I have been art gallery hunting -- online, that is. Results are below:

The sharing here of the links to Sir Joshua Reynolds’s “Mrs. Lloyd” added greatly to my enjoyment of these passages. I can’t help but think of the generations of readers who did not have the privilege of Internet access.

Below are links to other tableaux scenes or proposed scenes (or best guesses):

Sandro Botticelli’s “Spring” (In Vasari’s LIVES OF THE ARTISTS.)
http://www.all-art.org/early_renaissance/vasari_lives5.html

(Tiziano Vecelli) Titian’s “Girl with Dish of Fruit” (“Brilliant” Miss Smedden from Brooklyn – is the name a take-off on “smitten”? “…sumptuous curves, …lifting her gold salver laden with grapes above the harmonizing gold of rippled hair and rich brocade”.)
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/124/355408486_3dd8831c89_o.jpg -- best guess

Van Dyck Woman in Black Satin (Mrs. Van Alsyne – “frailer Dutch type, with high blue-veined forehead and pale eyes and lashes”) Perhaps here?
http://www.allposters.com/gallery.asp?startat=
/getposter.asp&APNum=1586542&CID=D23994642BCB4175AD253AB0C931726A
&PPID=1&search=van%20dyck&f=t&FindID=0&P=1
&PP=5&sortby=RD&cname=&SearchID= (use all 4 lines)

Or if with tongue in cheek?
http://www.allposters.com/gallery.asp?startat=/getposter.asp&
APNum=1742444&CID=D23994642BCB4175AD253AB0C931726A&PPID=1
&search=van%20dyck&f=t&FindID=0&P=2&
PP=5&sortby=RD&cname=&SearchID= (use all 4 lines)

Goya (“Carry Fisher, with her short dark-skinned face, the exaggerated glow of her eyes, the provocation of her frankly-painted smile.”) I can’t guess, maybe this one?
http://www.allposters.com/gallery.asp?
startat=/getposter.asp&APNum=1349735&CID=D23994642BCB4175AD253AB0C931726A&
PPID=1&search=24758&f=c&FindID=24758&P=3&PP=16&sortby=PD&
cname=Francisco+de+Goya&SearchID= (use all 4 lines)

Angelica Kauffmann nymphs – I don’t find nymphs, but here is some of her work:
http://www.abcgallery.com/K/kaufman/kaufman.html

Paolo Veronese’s “Feast in the House of Levi” (“Last Supper of Christ”)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paolo_Veronese (image will enlarge)

Jean Antoine Watteau’s lute playing comedians
http://www.abcgallery.com/W/watteau/watteau11.html
http://www.abcgallery.com/W/watteau/watteau.html
http://www.metmuseum.org/Works_of_Art/viewOne.asp?dep=11&viewmode=0&item=34.138

Giovanni Battista Tiepolo’s “Cleopatra”
http://www.ngv.vic.gov.au/collection/international/painting/t/ipa00006.html
http://www.venice-sights.co.uk/palazzo-labia.htm