1 2 3 4 50 Replies Latest reply on Aug 16, 2013 9:57 PM by TnTexas Go to original post
      • 30. Re: Help! I Hate My NOOK!!!!!

        patgolfneb wrote:

        Well OK except most of the posts logic boils down to what I want, even if it really doesn't benefit BN, is what is needed. The best example is the give me google play focus. Please don't repeat the it would arguments, I believe they are self serving at best and everyone has already made up their minds. Instead suggestions on ways BN could improve the products and services it offers would be much more constructive.


        Except the last many posts on this thread have not talked about demanding the Play Store. It's advocated allowing side-loading of apps, and B&N focusing on fixing the many software issues that exist but are not being addressed. Your comments are a classic strawman fallacy. You are throwing out a position that is not being discussed (though I admit it has been discussed in plenty of other places), and then you are knocking it down. That does not address what is being discussed.

        • 31. Re: Help! I Hate My NOOK!!!!!

          I don't really know what to say here.

           

          IN the end it's what B&N thinks.

           

          Obviously, for some reason, they think that it's not a good idea to

           

          A) Make it super easy to sideload.

           

          B) Shift to Google Play instead of their own app store.

           

          *****

           

          I think it would be helpful if people would just add a comment to their future posts indicating whether they are EVER, under any circumstances, going to change their minds.

           

          I'll start.

           

          1) I won't ever change my mind about thinking that the whole Google Play Store idea of letting anyone publish anything is a ridiculously bad idea.

           

          Further, I'll argue that it's just a way for Google to devalue content and software and offer that to users - and in return get user information and search revenues. So Google is just using other people's work for free to make money.

           

          2) I'm open to changing my mind about whether or not B&N needs Google Play to survive.

           

          3) I'm open to changing my mind about whether allowing sideloading benefits B&N.

           

          The one thing I would most like to see is people detach their own personal ethics system and attitude from THE AVERAGE USER MINDSET. What I mean is, people have arguments like

           

          I would get apps from elsewhere but I would buy books from B&N.

           

          Does that really match reality? We have things like showrooming where users go into stores, take up time and money to check devices, and then buy online.

           

          We have piracy everywhere. IN that environment, how is anyone running a store or selling content, supposed to believe this theory that - Leave the door open. No one is going to steal anything.

           

          So that's my biggest question - Are you underestimating the average person's ability to get music, movies, books, apps, software for free and then backwards rationalize that this is justified.

          • 32. Re: Help! I Hate My NOOK!!!!!
            bobstro

            5ivedom wrote:

            I don't really know what to say here.

             

            IN the end it's what B&N thinks.

             

            So far as what B&N sells, this is obviously true. So far as what is successful in the end, that's up to consumers.

             

            Obviously, for some reason, they think that it's not a good idea to

             

            A) Make it super easy to sideload.

             

            They've made a point of actively disabling the capability and frequently breaking such things with updates. It's this aggressive "defense" that I don't understand. I think you need to remove the word "super" from that line. They're making it impossible to sideload without going to extremes such as re-rooting and blocking updates. This puts the customer at odds with B&N on day one, and is not the basis of a lasting relationship. Not a good one.

             

            B) Shift to Google Play instead of their own app store.

             

            While there's been a lot of call from this, keep in mind, it's often been from kids who want the latest free version of <whatever> because mom & dad won't buy it for them. When you boil things down, it's usually driven by an underlying desire to install a few more apps. There are other ways to allow such installations that can mitigate B&N's risk without putting Google Play Store (GooPS) on devices .

             

            I think it would be helpful if people would just add a comment to their future posts indicating whether they are EVER, under any circumstances, going to change their minds.

             

            Not when I'm right. :smileyhappy:

             

            I'll start.

             

            1) I won't ever change my mind about thinking that the whole Google Play Store idea of letting anyone publish anything is a ridiculously bad idea.

             

            I won't ever change my mind that it's a brilliant idea. Not for traditional app developers, but for allowing access to a world-wide market with zero distribution costs for smaller developers. Not necessarily those who derive income solely from app sales, but certainly those who can figure out to use the disadvantages of the market (expectations of cheap apps) to their advantage (get my cheap app in the hands of a world-wide market of millions, sell things in-app, or link to revenue-generating services).

             

            What's more, the development tools are essentially free. My early forays into software development were quickly quashed by the money-intensive need to frequently update desktop development suites. My costs to develop for Android involve downloading the SDK, using open source development tools and maybe buying a few books to speed things along. A wealth of free development aids and instruction are available, much of which is provided by the evil Google 5ivedom loathes. I can spend weeks watching YouTube videos on how to code for Android. The little guy has a chance now. This hasn't been the case for decades, since back when Peter Norton did actually code in Turbo Pascal.

             

            The way I look at it, I've never had so low a bar to entry to a global market that immediately makes my product available to millions the way GooPS does, including the burgeoning markets of Asia. The challenge for me is to figure out how to make money doing so. The days of selling a little game for $20-30 are, I think, long gone, and the competition at the free-$3 range is fierce. I don't think Google is alone responsible for this, nor do I think it's a bad thing. There was a lot of really crappy software sold in the past, and consumers were often shafted by shrink-wrap licenses that made it impossible to refund a turd. Now the shoe's on the other foot, and consumers have the power. I think this is as it should be.

             

            Further, I'll argue that it's just a way for Google to devalue content and software and offer that to users - and in return get user information and search revenues. So Google is just using other people's work for free to make money.

             

            I'm sure Google wants to make money, but I also see them as providing value. You asked if I'd ever change my mind about things. Yes. Back in the 1980's, I would have decried any Big Brother-like monitoring of my whereabouts by any big entity. Now, I have to admit, I'll readily do it to get real-time turn-by-turn G(eo)PS instructions and traffic updates. I have to admit that Google "knowing" where I am (though doubtfully caring) is worth it. There are still limits. I won't put sensitive email on Gmail, though they can scoop through my hobby mailing lists if they like. I'm sure this information could be used to put a Hellfire missile through my windshield at any moment, but I'm prepared to live with that.

             

            2) I'm open to changing my mind about whether or not B&N needs Google Play to survive.

             

            I don't think they need GooPS. I doubt I'll change my mind when I think they need to quit fighting users who want to install it. There's a difference between putting the GooPS app on every device shipped, and actively trying to disable it on the devices of users who have installed it. The challenge for B&N is reduce the need for users to resort to GooPS in the first place. Face up to the fact that the B&N app store is pathetic and FIX IT rather than dumping it back on customers. Make your stuff rock, B&N, and why would I go anywhere else?

             

            3) I'm open to changing my mind about whether allowing sideloading benefits B&N.

             

            I'm not likely to change my opinion that it doesn't hurt B&N. Very few people will do it, and those people are obviously intersted in maintaining some relationship with B&N through their selection of device. I would be aggravated if they insisted on voiding my warranty to allow me to check a box to do so, since I'm not rooting the device, but I could live with it.

             

            You did leave out locked bootloaders and rooting. I think locked bootloaders tie to device ownership, and I am not going to change my opinion that customers should be provided some means of removing locked bootloaders, with the understanding that they will lose access to functionality when they do so. I think this is important to prevent devices from being dumped into landfills when they could be repurposed in meaningful ways. I feel very strongly that I own the device that I pay for.

             

            I think rooting has been made into a bigger deal that it should be through the actions of B&N and other companies that confuse exerting control over users with mitigating risk. I've had my Samsung tablet for a year now, and have not had any compelling reason to root yet. (I've come close, but it's a lot of work for the benefit I'd get.)

             

            The one thing I would most like to see is people detach their own personal ethics system and attitude from THE AVERAGE USER MINDSET. What I mean is, people have arguments like

             

            I would get apps from elsewhere but I would buy books from B&N.

             

            Does that really match reality?

             

            Seriously? I bought a NC and tried to use it more-or-less stock for a year. I was constantly frustrated by stupid little things B&N would do to keep me from doing just a few extra functions I needed to make it my mobile device of choice. As a result, I didn't invest in it for ebooks. I couldn't "trust" it. Only when I dumped B&N's software ecosystem did it become the device I wanted, and only then did I become an ebook convert. Once I could read books on MY device, I converted over from paper books almost wholesale. I have bought hundreds of dollars worth of ebooks from B&N since, even if I don't ultimately read them using B&N software. I've spent more on ebooks in the last two years with B&N than I did on paper books in the previous 5 because they're portable, and I can access them how I want to. I now hit the "buy" button through B&N on impulse all the time, without thinking twice. Using my device my way made me an ebook convert.

             

            Now apps are different. Quite frankly, with one or two small exceptions, I find the NOOK app store apps rather lacking. I have a significant existing investment in Android apps that I'm not willing to give up. I'm never going to buy many apps from B&N. Same for video and music. Sorry, but B&N is late to those games, and I've bought a lot of stuff already. Unless they offer something different, why would I throw away my investment?

             

            We have things like showrooming where users go into stores, take up time and money to check devices, and then buy online.

             

            Not sure how this relates, unless you mean showrooming in the B&N store. That doesn't have anything to do with devices. I'm more likely to hit a B&N store because I have my ebook loyalty to them now. I may not buy a lot in the store, but I do still buy some. If B&N would extend read-in-store to the Android app, I'd certainly hit the stores more frequently!

             

            We have piracy everywhere. IN that environment, how is anyone running a store or selling content, supposed to believe this theory that - Leave the door open. No one is going to steal anything.

             

            So that's my biggest question - Are you underestimating the average person's ability to get music, movies, books, apps, software for free and then backwards rationalize that this is justified.

             

            How does this relate to how we use our devices? Are you saying rooting, sideloading or accessing GooPS turns us into pirates? Are you saying not rooting, not sideloading or not accessing GooPS prevents piracy? Who exactly has suggested that any doors be left open?

             

            I hate to break it to you, but I have zero interest in your apps, free or otherwise. Your attitudes have certainly made up my mind on one thing: I will never buy apps from a developer that doesn't put my needs as a paying customer first and foremost. There are several developers on the GooPS for whom I have the opposite feeling, and from whom I've purchased apps that I don't really need, simply because they are upstanding citizens, and painfully responsive to the desires of their customers.

             

            Nobody is automatically entitled to my money. On that, I will never change my opinion.

             

            • 33. Re: Help! I Hate My NOOK!!!!!

              HumbleCorrespondent wrote:

              patgolfneb wrote:

              Well OK except most of the posts logic boils down to what I want, even if it really doesn't benefit BN, is what is needed. The best example is the give me Google play focus. Please don't repeat the it would arguments, I believe they are self serving at best and everyone has already made up their minds. Instead suggestions on ways BN could improve the products and services it offers would be much more constructive.


              Except the last many posts on this thread have not talked about demanding the Play Store. It's advocated allowing side-loading of apps, and B&N focusing on fixing the many software issues that exist but are not being addressed. Your comments are a classic strawman fallacy. You are throwing out a position that is not being discussed (though I admit it has been discussed in plenty of other places), and then you are knocking it down. That does not address what is being discussed.


              Now your insulting my intelligence, not to mention misapplying rules of debate / logic. The OP concerned dissatisfaction with apps. These forums are rife with app access discussion.  Frankly many of the arguments offered are intellectually dishonest. Because the true premise is how do we justify  opening nooks open to apps from other sources, primarily Google. To imply otherwise is deceptive.  A valid premise is BN would be more profitable if apps from Google,, were allowed. Although some have made this argument and it can analytically supported the truth is it would benefit customers but harm BN significantly. I certainly would love to have access to apps fro Apple, Google, or directly.  Reasonable people recognize that  this is the tradeoff for the tablets bargain price and some additional shopping convenience.

                

              If you wish to start applying the rules of logic and debate I am fine with that. I would insist that the many analytical but logically ridiculous posts I read meet the same standard

              • 34. Re: Help! I Hate My NOOK!!!!!
                bobstro

                patgolfneb wrote:
                [...] Because the true premise is how do we justify  opening nooks open to apps from other sources, primarily Google. To imply otherwise is deceptive.  

                 

                There is a difference between opening all NOOKs to GooPS, and allowing individuals who opt for the option the ability to do so. To allow that small percentage of users who want additional apps the means of accessing those apps doesn't automatically open up every NOOK to unrestricted GooPS access.

                 

                A valid premise is BN would be more profitable if apps from Google, were allowed. Although some have made this argument and it can analytically supported the truth is it would benefit customers but harm BN significantly.

                 

                If the customer dumps the NOOK and buys another device, that customer is lost to B&N, as is apparently the case with the OP. If that customer keeps the NOOK and buys some content from B&N, B&N benefits. If a still-smaller subset of those users (again, not every NOOK is affected) load GooPS, this doesn't change. This isn't a virus. It's not catching. The vast majority of NOOK users would probably be unaware of any of this.

                 

                Please understand: I like B&N. I even like the NOOK interface. I really tried to stick with it. I like the idea of a reading-focused experience. It just falls short on a few points that keep it from being the one device I carry. My honest opinion is that B&N needs to focus intensely on making their software of high and consistent caliber, regardless of platform. However, short of that, I wouldn't rule out using a NOOK again, provided I can use it how I need to use it.

                 

                 

                • 35. Re: Help! I Hate My NOOK!!!!!

                  patgolfneb wrote:

                  HumbleCorrespondent wrote:

                  patgolfneb wrote:

                  Well OK except most of the posts logic boils down to what I want, even if it really doesn't benefit BN, is what is needed. The best example is the give me Google play focus. Please don't repeat the it would arguments, I believe they are self serving at best and everyone has already made up their minds. Instead suggestions on ways BN could improve the products and services it offers would be much more constructive.


                  Except the last many posts on this thread have not talked about demanding the Play Store. It's advocated allowing side-loading of apps, and B&N focusing on fixing the many software issues that exist but are not being addressed. Your comments are a classic strawman fallacy. You are throwing out a position that is not being discussed (though I admit it has been discussed in plenty of other places), and then you are knocking it down. That does not address what is being discussed.


                  Now your insulting my intelligence, not to mention misapplying rules of debate / logic. The OP concerned dissatisfaction with apps. These forums are rife with app access discussion.  Frankly many of the arguments offered are intellectually dishonest. Because the true premise is how do we justify  opening nooks open to apps from other sources, primarily Google. To imply otherwise is deceptive.  A valid premise is BN would be more profitable if apps from Google,, were allowed. Although some have made this argument and it can analytically supported the truth is it would benefit customers but harm BN significantly. I certainly would love to have access to apps fro Apple, Google, or directly.  Reasonable people recognize that  this is the tradeoff for the tablets bargain price and some additional shopping convenience.

                    

                  If you wish to start applying the rules of logic and debate I am fine with that. I would insist that the many analytical but logically ridiculous posts I read meet the same standard


                  I'm doing neither. limsgirl made only one post. At the bottom of page three you began making your remarks below my post without any reference to her, or anyone else. That implies you were refering to me. The discussion had long since evolved. Neither Bobstro, myself, nor the last several posters demanded B&N put Google Play on our Nooks, or else. We were not demanding that B&N do anything. We were discussing how some loyal customers of good will were declining to buy another Nook decvice because of B&N's business decisions. We were giving constructive criticism about how B&N could retain those customers. How exactly is fixing known, longstanding software issues, building the best reader software in a consistent manner across all platforms that Nook software runs on, and allowing side-loading of apps hurting B&N? That is what we were discussing. We were not demanding Google Play.

                   

                  The fact is, the Nooks are no longer the best hardware by far, for the price, that they were when I bought my NCs two years ago. No one needs to buy them because they can't afford something else of quality. If they allowed side-loading of apps now, it would be silly to buy one, side-load apps, and then never darken the door of B&N again. You can just buy another quality tablet and get what you want to begin with. By not allowing side-loading, they are turning away people who want to own Nooks, but who do not want to buy two devices.

                  • 36. Re: Help! I Hate My NOOK!!!!!
                    Depends on if you what you are lookingto do. I am adjusting to my nook hd+. I have a nook1e which I absolutely love. I got my nok hd+ for a more interactive experience. B & n has free e book fridays. That is 52 free books a year. I don't find that to be too shabby.
                    • 37. Re: Help! I Hate My NOOK!!!!!
                      roustabout

                      Bobstro writes about a stance BN could take "users willing to cancel their warranty can sideload apps by checking this option"

                       

                      for the HD / HD+ line, current policy is actually more generous "users willing to configure ADB can sideload apps by checking this option" which enables ADB. 

                       

                      I had not planned on getting the HD+ but rather the N10, given the rather disappointing incremental change between the NC and the NT. 

                       

                      Once I saw, and confirmed here, that ADB was available by design, documented and supported the adb install command, the HD+ became a great option for me.  Most of what I wanted I could install without devs having achieved root yet.  I learned that without root Moon+ would let me synch reading position across my books, regardless of source, using Dropbox, eliminating the need for root to support fbreader + fbsync. 

                       

                      I was also fairly sure that the device would be rootable, and have been surprised by how quickly the devs achieved feature parity between the HD/HD+ devices and the NC line.  Want cm10?  It's available.  Want rooted stock with the Play store?  That's available too.  Want to enable unsigned apps without rooting?  That can be done as well.  I'm pretty sure that the Play store can be done without rooting as well.

                       

                      Am I interested by what I'm reading about the updated line of Archos tablets?  Yep.  Even without the latest and greatest Nvidia processor, Archos set the high water mark for optimizing Android to run on the same processor the HD+ runs on.  If I could figure out how to get the readability integrated BN browser to run elsewhere I'd be delighted (and might run CM10 much more regularly.) 

                       

                      But honestly, the HD+ is a nice upgrade for me.

                      • 38. Re: Help! I Hate My NOOK!!!!!
                        bobstro

                        roustabout wrote:

                        Bobstro writes about a stance BN could take "users willing to cancel their warranty can sideload apps by checking this option"

                         

                        for the HD / HD+ line, current policy is actually more generous "users willing to configure ADB can sideload apps by checking this option" which enables ADB. 

                         

                        I've been reading of your exploits, and it is indeed interesting. It would be nice if we could get some statement that not only is this "permitted", but that B&N won't act to diminish the capability in the future.

                         

                        Are apps loaded this way visible in the normal B&N interface, or do you have to go to some lengths to view them? One of my frustrations on the NC and NT is how apps might just "go away" at times, and be difficult to locate, or suddenly appear in the today bar where not wanted.

                         

                        I think this just shows that the issue is not a technical one, it's a management and customer relations one.

                         

                        It's also worth pointing out that this existing capability on the HD line hasn't resulted in mass migrations to the GooPS, nor collapse of the B&N ecosystem. I think my point has been illustrated.

                        • 39. Re: Help! I Hate My NOOK!!!!!
                          If you put in $0.00 in search you will get more free books than you will know what to do with
                          • 40. Re: Help! I Hate My NOOK!!!!!
                            Wow...who are you guys? I'm no where near qualified to debate with you guys...I'll humbly go back to reading my Nook. I love mine! Maybe I should start a new thread for my husband titled "Help! My Wife Loves Her Nook....so i get no nookie" subtitle...."the lonely life of the nook widower". :smileyhappy:
                            • 41. Re: Help! I Hate My NOOK!!!!!

                              bobstro wrote:

                              Google Play is what most of us think of when we think of "Android Apps", but it's far from the only way of getting apps onto your device. Rather than B&N's "hell no" answers, I think an answer more like "we can't allow Google Play Store (GPS) for business reasons, but users willing to cancel their warranty can sideload apps by checking this option" would be a reasonable middle ground.


                              My $70 Android game player (PSP looking device, 4.3" fairly low res touchscreen but not multi-touch) comes with a apk installer, so I installed GetJar and 1Mobile to get access to free apps, and the combination works reasonably well. I could have installed Amazon, but I don't want to have the game player set up to be able to charge a credit card, so I passed on that.

                               

                              Its not rooted, which means that unlike my rooted Nook Color, Flixster allows movies that I own in Ultraviolet to be downloaded onto the device, which I used to pass the time on a long bus trip to Knoxville over Christmas/New Years.

                               

                              Given that B&N presently allows sideloaded apk's for the Nook HD, it would seem to make sense to sell an apk installer in the Nook app store for, say, $10. It would, in any event, make the Nook app store show a healthy cash flow in the quarter that they released it.

                               

                              In a way, it would be similar to the Amazon "pay $20 to avoid the ads" ~ they sell the Nook HD and HD+ at or below cost as a device to buy B&N media ~ books, movies, videos, Nook apps ~ and this would basically add an extra margin on top to allow installing apps without rooting the device.

                              • 42. Re: Help! I Hate My NOOK!!!!!

                                The nook is an evil device, intended for people who think it will enable them to read more, because they feel they "ought to."  Anyone who really wants to read will find time to do so and does not need to spend a hundred bucks or so for a device that lets them spend even more for the electronic version of a book.

                                • 43. Re: Drive By
                                  keriflur

                                  *rolls eyes*

                                   

                                  The nook is intended for Julie.  Aren't you paying attention?!?! :smileywink:

                                  • 44. Re: Help! I Hate My NOOK!!!!!
                                    bobstro
                                    I can sure carry around more books on an electronic device. Finding the time to do so means reading g when and where I can. A NOOK or any other device merely increases the odds that I'll have what I want to read with me when those opportunities arise. I'm also paying less for eBooks than print.
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