19 Replies Latest reply: Jan 12, 2012 7:56 AM by roustabout

    On the verge of returning my NT

      I LOVE this device, but I really hate how B&N is trying to put a strangle hold on how and who I buy apps, music or yeah even books from.


      Firstly you need to face up to facts ... your app store is a joke. If you want people to buy things from your store over the Android Market Place, do it by making your store better, not by making it impossible for me to buy from someone else. I don't like being manipulated, it just pisses me off. And I don't think I'm alone.


      Secondly, when people buy a device they have this crazy idea that the device belongs to them. You seem to think it still belongs to you though. It doesn't, and all of this just makes me want to root the damn thing out of spite.


      Lastly, you say this "update" disallowing side loading is for security reasons ... ... really?

      At least be honest about it. Your customers aren't stupid. They read remember ??

       

      I'm going to sleep on it, but Im on the verge of returning my NT.


      Either way, you can bet I'll think twice before buying another device from you again. If there is another device from B&N after this that is.

       

        • Re: On the verge of returning my NT

          Then return it.

           

          Obviously, you're a user who was seeking a tablet and not a reader (with certain pluses).

          • Re: On the verge of returning my NT
            rafalweb

            I understand the frustration, but I'm also of the opinion, that the best place to research a product prior to purchase is a form like this one.  This is where you will find real-world opinions about what this device can and cannot do.   Before I got this device, I knew exactly what it could and could not do based upon what I read in this and other forums.  

             

            The responsibility is on the buyer to do the research.  Doing so prevents the aggravation of being frustrated by the surprises you find because you didn't read up on the device before buying it.

              • Re: On the verge of returning my NT

                 


                rafalweb wrote:

                I understand the frustration, but I'm also of the opinion, that the best place to research a product prior to purchase is a form like this one.  This is where you will find real-world opinions about what this device can and cannot do.   Before I got this device, I knew exactly what it could and could not do based upon what I read in this and other forums.  

                 

                The responsibility is on the buyer to do the research.  Doing so prevents the aggravation of being frustrated by the surprises you find because you didn't read up on the device before buying it.


                People like me, the early adopters, ARE the people who provide the forum information.

                 

                Once the reviews are available, how exactly do you propose we ensure that features that WERE there when we bought the device are not later erased by a software update?

                 

                Seems to me like the OP has a reasonable complaint.  But there's no point in complaining, just return it and get something that meets your requirements.

                 

                 

                 

                  • Re: On the verge of returning my NT
                    roustabout

                    OK, I have to ask:  "Once the reviews are available, how exactly do you propose we ensure that features that WERE there when we bought the device"

                     

                    I don't recall seeing a serious review of the tablet that mentioned the app sideloading without also mentioning that it was a software bug;  many of the comments on that, here and elsewhere, asked how long it would take to fix the bug.  

                     

                    I'm open to evidence of reviews that omitted that, just saying I did read quite a bit about the NT early on - it's a great platform in a lot of ways - and I don't recall reviews mentioning app sideloading as a feature they expected to last.  

                     

                    This how-to certainly didn't anticipate that the hole would be closed, true, but it doesn't seem like a review to my eye.  

                     

                    http://liliputing.com/2011/11/how-to-sideload-apps-on-the-nook-tablet-amazon-appstore-go-launcher-ex.html 

                      • Re: On the verge of returning my NT
                        moose_tracker

                        Actually Roustabout your example is perfect:

                         

                        Take the original Review:

                         

                         

                        The Barnes & Noble NOOK Tablet ships with a couple of great apps pre-loaded including Pandora, Netflix, a decent email app, and an excellent eBook reader. There’s also an app section of the B&N Shop where you can browse for additional apps for the tablet — but the selection is pretty limited.

                        Fortunately it’s pretty easy to install third party apps on the NOOK Tablet. You don’t even need to root the tablet or install any custom firmware to do it. You might need a microSD card though.

                         

                         

                        No where in there does it state that this feature is a bug.. Just that ti is easy to do without rooting or installing custom firmware..

                         

                        Listen to the video... Nothing about this being a bug that would be patched soon, or even that it was a bug at all.. Just simple to turn on..

                         

                        The only place that anything of conflict shows up is in the updates starting 12/23/2011.. And still not mentioned as a bug that was fixed.. Just it only works on 1.4.0..

                         

                        So Purchasing my Nook Tablet on 12/09/11 did not give me insight when I was doing research per-12/09/2011 to the fact that this was a bug that needed to be fixed, or even that it was an unintended feature.. Just that a default setting needed to be changed.

                          • Re: On the verge of returning my NT

                            Moose_Tracker posted:  No where in there does it state that this feature is a bug.. Just that ti is easy to do without rooting or installing custom firmware..

                             

                            Bait and switch.

                              • Re: On the verge of returning my NT
                                roustabout

                                Bythenook actually supplied a device review that mentions sideloading and doesn't warn that it may well go away. 

                                 

                                Thank you - it really is better to have the links than it is to get into "well, Poster X said." 

                                 

                                If you follow the hyperlink embedded in "workarounds," the link is to a piece titled "Nook Tablet forgets to use protection, lets outside apps in"  Engadget did phrased the article as either hoping or expecting BN to retain the feature, true, but anything forgotten may yet be remembered.

                                 

                                In a different followup, about the Lilliputing article, Bythenook seems to be referring to this as "bait and switch."

                                 

                                Here, I have to disagree.  Barnes and Noble did not write the Engadget coverage or the Lilliputing coverage. 

                                 

                                Unlike Sony, which marketed the PS 3 as a linux-capable device and included a menu option, "other OS," in the original software, BN did not advertise the feature, and Android executables are nowhere to be found on the list of supported file types for the NT. 

                                 

                                And I also have to ask:  bait and switch is a term of art describing fraud;  where is the loss?  There are still 20 days to return the device or learn to modify it so that it retains or regains the ability to sideload apps. 

                                 

                                Here are the supported filetypes for the Nook Tablet;  unsupported files can be used but are, well, unuspported and may not behave as you intend. 

                                 

                                http://www.barnesandnoble.com/p/nook-tablet-barnes-noble/1104687969#nook-commentary-features-1

                                 

                                • Load EPUB (including Adobe DRM or DRM free) or PDF file types from your computer or microSD card
                                • Other documents: XLS, DOC, PPT, TXT, DOCM, XLSM, PPTM, PPSX, PPSM, DOCX, XLX, PPTX
                                • Watch videos in MP4, or Adobe Flash Player format, 3GP, 3G2 MKV, WEBM (Video Codecs: H.264, MPEG-4, H.263, VP8)
                                • Supports Netflix video up to 720p and sideloaded video up to 1080p; renders at 1024 x 600
                                • Load photos and create personal wallpaper: JPG, GIF, PNG, BMP
                                • Play audio on built-in mono speaker: MP3, MP4, AAC, AMR, WAV, OGG (Audio Codecs MP3, AAC, AMR, LPCM, OGG Vorbis)
                                  • Re: On the verge of returning my NT

                                    roustabout wrote:

                                     Android executables are nowhere to be found on the list of supported file types for the NT. 


                                     

                                     

                                    Sorry, but I fail to see the logic in this statement.   APK files are native to the Android environment.  The operating system automatically recognizes this file format.  If the above statement were true than the apps from B&N own store would not be supported as they are android executables.

                                     

                                     

                                      • Re: On the verge of returning my NT
                                        roustabout

                                        krier notes, in response to the list of file types from  http://www.barnesandnoble.com/p/nook-tablet-barnes-noble/1104687969#nook-commentary-features-1

                                         

                                        "APK files are native to the Android environment.  The operating system automatically recognizes this file format.  If the above statement were true than the apps from B&N own store would not be supported as they are android executables."

                                         

                                        True - a better way of phrasing my take on the files outlined on that list is that it is the list of sideloadable file types.

                                         

                                        I don't expect this thread of the conversation to convince anyone on either side, though. 

                                         

                                        And I agree that for a developer, an APK file is content that needs to be sideloadable and executable.  For the rest of us, being able to load those files is entirely possible, and we are left with one of the world's least convenient thumb drivers for APK transport. 

                                         

                                        Being able run those files adds value to the device and the question is, did folks reasonably expect BN to support that with the trivial level of modification that the 1.4.0 firmware permitted?  My response is that no, I didn't;  I expected that BN was caught flat-footed by ease with which apps from other vendors and those vendors' stores could be installed on their device.  I expected that, as with other BN devices, installing other stores or successfully sideloading APK files and installing them would require the device be rooted. 

                                         

                                        I think there are people who had read that the NC was "easy to modify" - which it is - and had not understood that even so, the modifications did require reading, elbow grease, tolerance for crashing and maintenance.  Those folks may have expected that "easy to modify" meant the ease under 1.4.0. 

                                         

                                        Not all of the folks who are here saying that was their expectation are being candid, though.  We've seen a very prominent android hacker claim that his device was updated to 1.4.1 and that this cost him functionality.  This was after he'd posted detailed walkthroughs on how to block the process, how to restore 1.4.0 and on another forum indicated that the restore process had been tested more than once.

                              • Re: On the verge of returning my NT
                                rafalweb

                                floridaphil wrote:

                                 


                                rafalweb wrote:

                                I understand the frustration, but I'm also of the opinion, that the best place to research a product prior to purchase is a form like this one.  This is where you will find real-world opinions about what this device can and cannot do.   Before I got this device, I knew exactly what it could and could not do based upon what I read in this and other forums.  

                                 

                                The responsibility is on the buyer to do the research.  Doing so prevents the aggravation of being frustrated by the surprises you find because you didn't read up on the device before buying it.


                                People like me, the early adopters, ARE the people who provide the forum information.

                                 

                                Once the reviews are available, how exactly do you propose we ensure that features that WERE there when we bought the device are not later erased by a software update?

                                 

                                Seems to me like the OP has a reasonable complaint.  But there's no point in complaining, just return it and get something that meets your requirements.

                                 

                                 

                                 


                                I'm not saying that the OP's concerns are unreasonable.   BUT, early adopters will always risk the unpleasant surprises that the rest of us know about later on, b/c the adopters write about them in the forums.  For that, I thank the early adopters.  So, if the OP is an early adopter, then the unwanted lack of apps is an issue that comes with the territory (though in that case, BN should NOT be advertising "thousands" of apps so early on), and if not an early adopter, then my original point stands.... the forums are there to provide potential buyers with the information, good and bad, upon which said buyer may base their informed decision.

                              • Re: On the verge of returning my NT

                                 It was a Christmases present. I had nothing to do with buying it. The point is still that this tablet is made and sold as a device that does a lot and handles a lot.

                                It's being sold as as "tablet" not a reader.

                                 

                                 

                                I don't see how B&N removing functionality in this way makes any seance or how this should have been anticipated by any prospective buyer.

                              • Re: On the verge of returning my NT

                                sisquack wrote: If you want people to buy things from your store over the Android Market Place,


                                The Nook never allowed loading apps from the Android market without needing to root the device.  Which you can still do. QED.

                                 

                                • Re: On the verge of returning my NT
                                  patgolfneb
                                  Roust, and, Keith, hasn't it become obvious that common sense and critical thinking don't matter on internet forums. I also have searched for any mainline review or BN statement that this was a feature or sideloading apps was a feature. Obviously the enthusiasts blogs discovering this unintended loophole and reporting it must obligate BN, after after all they speak for BN, don't they? Every product must have every possible feature, even if there are substantial price differences. Imagine my surprise that there are full featured versions of my bargain PC programs locked away inside, available to me only after paying for the upgrade. It is already there, how dare they not give me the entire program, after all the online blog I read told me it's there and how to unlock it. Now they won't even answer my questions about the program. I can't believe the lousy customer service, how dare they deny me the right to do whatever I want, my freedom has been denied. SOUND FAMILIAR?
                                    • Re: On the verge of returning my NT

                                      patgolfneb wrote:
                                      Imagine my surprise that there are full featured versions of my bargain PC programs locked away inside, available to me only after paying for the upgrade. It is already there, how dare they not give me the entire program, after all the online blog I read told me it's there and how to unlock it.

                                       

                                      Going further with your example: Let's hypothesize that a software company releases "trial" software  and it is supposed to let you use it for a month but they accidently allow unlimited access. Later they release an update that fixes that bug and perhaps even causes already downloaded previous version to start failing if it accesses the internet and "phones home".

                                       

                                      Then applying the logic many people on this forum are espousing would mean that the software company is doing something illegal and unethical.

                                      • Re: On the verge of returning my NT
                                        LarryOnLI

                                        patgolfneb wrote:
                                        Roust, and, Keith, hasn't it become obvious that common sense and critical thinking don't matter on internet forums. I also have searched for any mainline review or BN statement that this was a feature or sideloading apps was a feature. Obviously the enthusiasts blogs discovering this unintended loophole and reporting it must obligate BN, after after all they speak for BN, don't they? Every product must have every possible feature, even if there are substantial price differences. Imagine my surprise that there are full featured versions of my bargain PC programs locked away inside, available to me only after paying for the upgrade. It is already there, how dare they not give me the entire program, after all the online blog I read told me it's there and how to unlock it. Now they won't even answer my questions about the program. I can't believe the lousy customer service, how dare they deny me the right to do whatever I want, my freedom has been denied. SOUND FAMILIAR?

                                        LOL, the most egregious example of this I've ever seen was in Computer Numerical Control machine controllers by Cincinnati Milacron.

                                         

                                        The controllers all came with 20 MB (not GB) hard drives, but you needed to license the capacity in (I believe) 5 MB increments. So even though you had a 20 MB drive, if you only paid for 5 MB you could only use 5.

                                         

                                        This was back in the early 90's BTW.

                                         

                                          • Re: On the verge of returning my NT

                                            LarryOnLI wrote:

                                            patgolfneb wrote:
                                            Roust, and, Keith, hasn't it become obvious that common sense and critical thinking don't matter on internet forums. I also have searched for any mainline review or BN statement that this was a feature or sideloading apps was a feature. Obviously the enthusiasts blogs discovering this unintended loophole and reporting it must obligate BN, after after all they speak for BN, don't they? Every product must have every possible feature, even if there are substantial price differences. Imagine my surprise that there are full featured versions of my bargain PC programs locked away inside, available to me only after paying for the upgrade. It is already there, how dare they not give me the entire program, after all the online blog I read told me it's there and how to unlock it. Now they won't even answer my questions about the program. I can't believe the lousy customer service, how dare they deny me the right to do whatever I want, my freedom has been denied. SOUND FAMILIAR?

                                            LOL, the most egregious example of this I've ever seen was in Computer Numerical Control machine controllers by Cincinnati Milacron.

                                             

                                            The controllers all came with 20 MB (not GB) hard drives, but you needed to license the capacity in (I believe) 5 MB increments. So even though you had a 20 MB drive, if you only paid for 5 MB you could only use 5.

                                             

                                            This was back in the early 90's BTW.

                                             


                                            IBM did the same thing with some of their tape drive array controllers in the late 70's / 80's.  There was a speed upgrade which could be performed onsite by a technician. He cleared the computer room of all personnel and proceeded to move a rubber drive belt off of one pulley onto another larger pulley. And it cost HUGE money!  Then he relaxed for 25 minutes and only then permitted the personnel back into the computer room.  Marketing, marketing.

                                             

                                             

                                        • Re: On the verge of returning my NT

                                           

                                          It side loaded, it worked, it was a better device for it. Yes or no?


                                          B&N  wanted to restrict your purchases to their store, so they took side loading away. Are you better off for that?


                                          Now I have a device that is capable of a lot more than I can currently do with it. Thanks a bunch.

                                          Should I be happy about this?


                                          In my opinion, trying to over control people is counter to the effect they are looking for. It's going to turn people off and drive away the wider market they are obviously trying to bring in.

                                          People are buying this thing because it has greater ability than it's nearest competitor. But what's the point if they take that flexibility away.

                                           

                                          They just don't have the wares.

                                          We know they want to be Apple, but they aren't. It would be nice if they would lose the attitude.


                                          Can anyone here honestly say that you don't want the ability to buy from the Android Marketplace, or any other android friendly seller?

                                          Do you think that not having this is a good thing for YOU ?


                                          If you say yes I'd really like to hear why. But please don't trot out the "quality control" or "security concerns" argument. We know that one and it's a dead horse.

                                           

                                          Now you may say I'm beating a dead horse of my own, and I'd say your probably right. I know B&N isn't reading this and saying, "My God ... this guy's upset .. fix this ASAP!"

                                          I'm not delusional, but I do want to add my voice to the issue.


                                          Now I may root this thing or I may return it. But either way I'm damn well entitled to my opinion and I'll say what I like if you don't mind. Especially in what I took to be an open forum.

                                          I was genuinely surprised to see responses to my post that bordered on telling me to return it, shut up and go away.


                                          But if it's all the same to you, but only if you don't mind too much, I'll bellyache all I like thanks.

                                          It makes me feel better.