1 2 3 4 47 Replies Latest reply on Nov 13, 2014 12:04 PM by keriflur Go to original post
      • 15. Re: Stop Amazon? Really?
        captainnook

        Bob George wrote:

         

        So don't sell to Kindlers. The problem is that Amazon is putting out the more compelling products right now. Maybe publishers and everybody that isn't Amazon should focus on that problem.

         

        Apple didn't move from near-obscurity to market domination by making sure they could sell to the majority of the market, they offered something better. They innovated. Apple dominated in the smartphone space. Now there's competition and, arguably, equal if not superior devices and services. Nobody "stopped" Apple, and they didn't kowtow to Applers to do it. There are devices out there as good as, if not better than, the iPhone and iTab.

         

        Compete by offering something better first. (And "better" is subjective.) I'm hardly a fan of Amazon, but a lot of this anti-Amazon yammering is asking for legal remedies rather than offering consumers anything better. Yes, Amazon sucks. No, it's unlikely anybody's going to step in and stop them. So now what? This has been going on long enough that someone should be coming up with ideas instead of insisting that "we" (consumers, government and everybody else) somehow "stop" Amazon.

         

        Is the Kindle really the penultimate device? The best device possible to serve the needs of readers?

         

        Sure, Mac's wife isn't changing soon. Why should she? There's nothing better being offered. That's the problem, not the fact that she finds Amazon easiest.

         

        [Edit] I just read and agree with Keri's post. Yes, a lot of people, or at least people that spend a lot on books, care deeply about what and who's works they read. That is the strength of all-that-is-not-Amazon. So do something with it.

         

        If, let's say, Blackberry, decided to answer the upstart Apple by selling all of their phones at a loss and somehow found a way to negotiate deals with all the cell service providers at a substantial discount to everyone else by convincing them that Blackberry would dominate and own the market, I don't think Apple would have done as well as it did.

         

        Granted, not a perfect analogy, but the point is, what innovative company would want to enter a market with a dominant player willing to defend their marketshare at the cost of earnings and shareholder value? The reason no one tries to compete by offering better products is because the game is rigged to begin with.

        • 16. Re: Stop Amazon? Really?
          bobstro

          keriflur wrote:

           

          Well, it would have been REALLY HARD to imitate the Voyage, as the H2O was out before the Voyage was announced.

          I wasn't exactly sure of the timing. I know the Amazon announcement came out well after the H2O started advanced orders, but that really wasn't the point. The design and build had to start darn-near concurrently, to which my point is that Kobo:

           

          1. Wasn't trying to imitate Amazon's success.
          2. Was willing to take a measured risk with a high-end device with key features that nobody else was prioritizing (waterproofiness, 6.8 inch screen).
          Bob, I suspect that even if the Voyage were a better device (and I suspect it is, and while I won't be doing a side-by-side like I did with the Aura and the Kindle, I'd expect similar results), you'd find a way to claim it wasn't.

          Ouch! Where'd that come from Keri? I've never claimed the Kobo H2O was better than the Voyage. I've never seen a Voyage compare to. I have only stated that Kobo put out the H2O without following Amazon, which you've just confirmed above. The Voyage may very well be better in some regards, but the H2O has set a high bar. Certainly for my primary usage, which is in water! The H2O is a great device. If you want a device, particularly if you are Amazon-adverse.

          • 17. Re: Stop Amazon? Really?
            bobstro

            keriflur wrote:

            [...] Apple Pay, IMO, is the outcome of that - it's more secure than any other form of phone-based NFC payment. That will push the whole market forward, and we will all see the gains of that.

            Am I mistaken, or isn't NFC payment old hat in many parts of the world? Apple may be making a big splash here in the USA, but folks up in Montreal seem to be tapping their phones away on parking meters out of ingrained habit. I felt positively quaint digging for change. (Finally, a chance to dump some US coins into Canadian meters!)

             

            ApplePay offers some improvements, but it might be a bit early to declare it the end-all solution to security issues.

            • 18. Re: Stop Amazon? Really?
              bobstro

              Dean Gibson wrote:

              [...] Apple owners know that Al Gore invented the Internet

              Poor ol' Al. He didn't exactly say that. He was heavily involved in the "Information Super Highway" effort that was a big deal in the 1990s. I can still remember all the pictures of the glowing fiber mesh in the sky over the map of the US.

               

              [...] Unfortunately, the NFC purchase app on my Android phone was named "ISIS" (seriously).

              That, at least, is only awkward. The Institute for Science and International Security must be really bummed.

              • 19. Re: Stop Amazon? Really?
                keriflur

                Bob George wrote:

                 

                keriflur wrote:

                [...] Apple Pay, IMO, is the outcome of that - it's more secure than any other form of phone-based NFC payment. That will push the whole market forward, and we will all see the gains of that.

                Am I mistaken, or isn't NFC payment old hat in many parts of the world? Apple may be making a big splash here in the USA, but folks up in Montreal seem to be tapping their phones away on parking meters out of ingrained habit. I felt positively quaint digging for change. (Finally, a chance to dump some US coins into Canadian meters!)

                Yep, NFC is old hat. We are WAY behind. We're still trying to convert to chip and pin, which has been in use in the rest of the world for a decade. It's gotten to the point that it's problematic for international travel.

                 

                BUT, that does not mean that the NFC that the rest of the world is using is as secure as Apple Pay. All NFC is is a way to transmit data. Apple Pay is doing it in a way where none of your sensitive data is transmitted to or through the vendor. That's a big deal, especially here in the US where many major vendors, including B&N (have to loop them in here somewhere), have had major data breeches. And you "sign" for your payment with either your fingerprint (on the iphone) or your biometric data (on the forthcoming Apple Watch), reducing the chance of fraud down even further.

                 

                Frankly, I don't care if NFC is the tech they're using or not, I like the idea of a simple, fraud-free payment option. However that happens, whichever vendor it is, I want it. I want not to have Citi calling, texting, and emailing me every couple of months to verify transactions. I want not to have to replace my card every couple of years because someone is using my number in Spain and Germany concurrently while I'm here in the US, or someone has bought $400 of merchandise at a gas station and ordered $2000 in bouquets from 1-800-FLOWERS. So, yay for Apple Pay. I hope the tech spreads and everyone uses it.

                • 20. Re: Stop Amazon? Really?
                  keriflur

                  captainnook wrote:

                  Granted, not a perfect analogy, but the point is, what innovative company would want to enter a market with a dominant player willing to defend their marketshare at the cost of earnings and shareholder value? The reason no one tries to compete by offering better products is because the game is rigged to begin with.

                  The shareholders are getting a bit tired of this, and have been pushing Amazon to bring in some solid earnings. I wonder how long Amazon will be able to go on like this, as it's not sustainable and eventually the analysts are going to wise up and list the company as a SELL.

                  • 21. Re: Stop Amazon? Really?
                    bobstro

                    keriflur wrote:

                    [...] Frankly, I don't care if NFC is the tech they're using or not, I like the idea of a simple, fraud-free payment option.

                    Wups, we crossed edits again: ApplePay offers some improvements, but it might be a bit early to declare it the end-all solution to security issues.

                     

                    Now who's the fanboy/girl?

                    • 22. Re: Stop Amazon? Really?
                      keriflur

                      Bob George wrote:

                       

                      keriflur wrote:

                      [...] Frankly, I don't care if NFC is the tech they're using or not, I like the idea of a simple, fraud-free payment option.

                      Wups, we crossed edits again: ApplePay offers some improvements, but it might be a bit early to declare it the end-all solution to security issues.

                       

                      Now who's the fanboy/girl?

                      I don't think it's the end-all solution at all. Re-read my original response to Dean. I think it's a step in the right direction. Right now they are the security leader. Hopefully their process will spread and the market will become more secure overall. Then someone (maybe Apple, maybe someone else) will come up with something to make it more secure. That's why competition is good. It's good that Apple is in the pack, that Samsung is in the pack, that Motorola and Microsoft and Google and all the others are fighting for dominance - it leads to innovation, and when it comes to payment security, we NEED innovation.

                       

                      And as I said, I don't care who came up with the tech. So unless you're calling me a fangirl of fraud-protection, you've missed the mark.

                      • 23. Re: Stop Amazon? Really?
                        keriflur

                        And why am I moderated in my response quoting captainnook? Neither of us said anything offensive and there are no links in it.

                         

                        agarcia - Any idea what triggered a moderation (so we know what to avoid?)

                        • 24. Re: Stop Amazon? Really?
                          Alex Garcia

                          No worries - just the competitor & link filter.

                           

                          - Alex

                          • 25. Re: Stop Amazon? Really?
                            keriflur

                            Bob George wrote:

                            Wups, we crossed edits again: ApplePay offers some improvements, but it might be a bit early to declare it the end-all solution to security issues.

                             

                            So I read through that article, and it seems to have some basic and easily refuted claims:

                             

                            1. The devices are more desirable to steal - this is irrelevant to the security, because unless you have the passcode/fingerprint/biometric signature of the person who owns the phone/watch, you cannot use Apple Pay.

                            2. You have to trust the app-makers who are integrating it - No, you don't, because they cannot access your actual card information. All they get is the token.

                            3. You can use fake fingerprints to get into an iDevice - well, yeah, duh, of course you can, if you locate a good print and make a model of it. Let's pretend that this is something everyone knows how to do. It still takes hours to do, and in that time, odds are the owner noticed that their phone was missing and has disabled the feature. But then let's pretend the thief swiped it from a drunk in a bar and they've got lots of time because the guy's too gone to notice. He's still going to notice the next morning, the purchases are still credit card protected, and the thief can't even get the card number off the phone, because all that's there are tokens.

                            3a. If the phone is off-network, you can't disable Apple Pay - but you CAN call your bank and put a hold on your card. This is another "duh" moment. You don't even need to cancel the card number, because the number isn't compromised, just the device.

                            4. To get a card on there, you send a picture of it to Apple - um, no, not how it works at all.

                             

                            This article was written just after the announcement and before the service went into effect. I'm sure there are actual ways to get around the security, but these aren't those ways.

                            • 26. Re: Stop Amazon? Really?
                              bobstro

                              Just one of many links that popped up cautioning against buying in the what the Apple hypesters are peddling. Anyone truly interested can do the google search. There's an interesting comment at about 3:35 of this podcast indicating that the Europeans are ahead on this... but kinda hard to quote that.

                              keriflur wrote: [...] Frankly, I don't care if NFC is the tech they're using or not, I like the idea of a simple, fraud-free payment option.

                              Ah, the joys of English. I read "they" as Apple. I think now you meant "anybody".

                               

                              Does suck being accused of fanboy/girl-dom though, doesn't it?

                              • 27. Re: Stop Amazon? Really?
                                keriflur

                                Nope. I absolutely am a fangirl of fraud-protection. I happily admit it. I'm also a fangirl of good books, democracy, apple pie, Taylor Swift, and chocolate chip cookies (but only if I make them myself).

                                 

                                Come on, Bob, get on the fan-wagon!

                                 

                                As for the cautionary links - of course there are naysayers, and they're probably all as educated about both security and Apple Pay as the guy that wrote the one you linked. It doesn't mean anything. Even the naysayers have to admit this is the currently the most secure solution available. And of course there's the guarantee that eventually there will be a way to crack it, and there will be a more secure option down the line.

                                • 28. Re: Stop Amazon? Really?
                                  bobstro

                                  The guy interviewed in the ThreatPost podcast has good credentials.

                                   

                                  You did say frog protection, didn't you?

                                  • 29. Re: Stop Amazon? Really?
                                    keriflur

                                    I can't watch podcasts while at work - does he say anything the other guy didn't say?

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